Here is the frontline news all over the world.



ROME - Draped in a blanket and apparently hooked up to an intravenous drip, former hostage Giuliana Sgrena returned home from Iraq (news - web sites) on Saturday, hours after American troops fired on the car taking her to Baghdad's airport, wounding her. The Italian intelligence officer who negotiated her freedom was hit by the gunfire and died in her arms.




Here is what is at the bottom of page that most people don't read.


The U.S. military said the car Sgrena was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots," the military said.


What is unsaid is that suicide bombers speed into check points to kill the US troops and if the troops don't want to die they will shoot any vehicle that doesn't stop.

The driver for the hostage could have been on a suicide mission because he knew his actions would cause an automatic reaction from the US troops.

It is a propaganda great for the terrorist to drive a wedge between the US and the EU. The news media plays their part like a seasoned expert.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050305/ap_on_re_mi_ea/italy_iraq_hostage

Top Stories - Reuters

By Philip Pullella

ROME (Reuters) - The United States and its staunch Iraq (news - web sites) war ally Italy face their worst falling out in years after U.S. troops killed an Italian secret service agent and wounded an Italian reporter.

The shooting in Iraq on Friday, as the reporter was being whisked to freedom after being held hostage for a month, was sure to fuel anti-war activists in Italy and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.


NATIONAL RAGE

"The hardest moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," Sgrena's long-time companion quoted her as saying on her flight back to Rome.

Such poignant words are fueling national rage.

There are many questions surrounding this incident. I don't know the answers, but here is one question that may have a bearing on what happened. Was the U.S. military informed that the hostage had been rescued, and were they aware that the rescued hostage was being taken to the airport? Was the information passed on to the sentries manning the checkpoint? This bears directly on what happened.
So far the situation is unclear. This seems to be a situation where things escalated from SNAFU to FUBAR. At the very least, it is a nightmare situation politically. It is also a human tradgedy. I will be very interested in what the inquiries into how this incident took place.

You have 2 choices on this one ... you can believe non-paritsan eye-witnesses or you can believe FOX news.

I'm going to say it again ... we are out of control over there. It seems though we think we have a license to kill anyone at anytime.

not in my name

Dop

Meanwhile, who is Giuliana Sgrena and why is her abduction mobilizing Italy as well as Iraq?

She reported directly from Baghdad and lived among the people. Giuliana was the first journalist in Italy to speak of the Iraqi resistance but never through the spokespersons of organized groups; always through the voices of the people, among which, prominent, were women's voices."

Simona Torretta and Simona Parri, the two humanitarian workers of "Un ponte per Baghdad" (A Bridge for Baghdad), abducted from their Baghdad office and freed on 28 September 2004, know Giuliana Sgrena well and have issued a statement on Il Manifesto after her abduction: "During the war, she showed the Iraq that no one saw—that of the civilians hit by the bombs. She was one of the first journalists to collect evidence of rape among women detainees at Abu Ghraib. Giuliana is much loved by Iraqis.

Was Sgrena really abducted?
Sheik Abdel Salam al Qubaisi of the Association of Islamic Scholars (Sunni), in extremely severe terms, denounced the abduction: "This type of kidnapping distorts and defames the resistance of the Iraqi people against the American occupation." Sheik Al Qubaisi reminded Iraqis that on 19 January, the Association of Islamic Scholars pronounced itself explicitly opposed to "such actions, affirming that there must be no kidnapping of journalists."

Indeed, Chiarini reports, Sheik al Qubaisi remains skeptical about the groups claiming responsibility for the abduction (another group, the Brigades of the Mujaheddin in Iraq, claimed that Sgrena had been killed, but evidence to the contrary has been subsequently confirmed). "We still have our doubts. We don't know if what they say is true. We believe that no Iraqi organization would organize a kidnapping of this kind, especially not of a journalist who intended to interview the refugees of Fallujah, victims of the American occupation."

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/021205Bohne/021205bohne.html






Here are some comments about her abduction:

It certainly isn't beyond possibility that she'd stage it; after all, a US Marine staged his own phony abduction.

I'll come right out and say I am SURE it's phony. It's awfully "convenient" that an Italian anti-war activist was taken hostage to demand Italy's withdrawal of troops.

If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry and I wish for her safety. But I don't think I am.
Posted by: Beth at February 5, 2005 10:17 PM

Dear terrorists: Cut the America hating skanks throat and prove you got her!
Posted by: Filthy Allah at February 7, 2005 10:04 AM

As I mentioned in Wizbang, this smelled like an insurance fraud. Chances are good that this 'journalist' bought kidnapping insurance (I would've if my line of work involves risk of getting kidnapped). The co-conspirator 'kidnapped' this 'journalist', and contacted the insurance about payment. The 'kiddnapped journalist' is release after the cash exchange hands, and everyone is happy except the insurnace company.
Posted by: BigFire at February 7, 2005 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
You have 2 choices on this one ... you can believe non-paritsan eye-witnesses or you can believe FOX news.

I'm going to say it again ... we are out of control over there. It seems though we think we have a license to kill anyone at anytime.

not in my name

Dop

good god shut this idiot up. I guess he wants our guys to just let cars speed past stop signs and warning fire and then do nothing about it.

I guess he wants our guys to just let cars speed past stop signs and warning fire and then do nothing about it.

Too bad we can't divert those cars over to his house. You know his attitude would change 100% if he had to actually deal with that crap. But no, he gets to sit in his big cumfy chair in front of the TV and criticize everyone else. Lungdog is one of the biggest f-ing poutangs on this forum.


Old Reb, interesting theory. The story certainly is very odd. US troops don't just go around shooting cars. It's pretty obvious they were doing something erratic. I wonder who was driving, and what they have to say.

yea.... dop must be unaware that driving a car into american-filled places IS A MAIN WAY THEY USE TO DO SUICIDE MISSIONS. So then we try to protect ourselves, and of course Dop sees it as the mean-old hateful Americans murdering in cold blood....sheez.

Seems to me the Italian gov't and their hostage recovery team need to accept responsibility for this situation, and head back to the training areas for a lot more rehersal before they attempt this again. Or, they could simply hire Israelies to do the task for them.

I guess dop doesn't quite grasp what a checkpoint is. They dont set them up to watch cars drive by at high speeds. They are there to stop every car on that particular road. iraqis by now know the routine when it comes to checkpoints. if you speed up to one you will get shot. if the driver of this car did not know then it is a tragedy, not another sign of how out of control our blood thirsty troops are. try and put yourself in the boots of a soldier on a checkpoint at night in IRaq Dop, at least attempt to give them some consideration before launching into one of your evil american soldier rants.

Originally posted by Karankawa

Old Reb, interesting theory. The story certainly is very odd. US troops don't just go around shooting cars. It's pretty obvious they were doing something erratic. I wonder who was driving, and what they have to say.

They were driving at night and under a curfew. I have heard of suicide by the police and maybe suicide by Americans. Those people like suicides that help their cause. This driver by his actions was attempting suicide.

If she was deliberately targeted then she must have notified the americans she was coming.

ROME - The Italian journalist wounded by American troops in Iraq after her release by insurgents rejected the U.S. military’s account of the shooting and declined Sunday to rule out the possibility she was deliberately targeted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/7089948/

----
If she kept her return secret. Well, how could the Americans know she was coming. She can't have it both ways.

Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors’ words, when they warned her “to be careful because the Americans don’t want you to return.”

Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because “the Americans might intervene.” She said her captors blindfolded her and drove her to a location where she was turned over to agents and they set off for the airport.

Her agent gets shot in the temple and she gets a "John Kerry" wound. Hmmm

- from the BBC website :

"Mr Calipari was a highly experienced hostage negotiator and intelligence official, who had helped secure the release of two Italian aid workers taken captive in Iraq."

Do you really believe these guys were not aware of the way checkpoints work in Iraq ?

Rather than admitting the soldiers who killed this guy made a terrible mistake at least, you try to insinuate the italian hostage was in fact a liar.
That makes me sick.


"In a separate development on Monday, the Bulgarian Defence Minister, Nikolai Svinarov, announced that a Bulgarian soldier killed last week in Iraq was the victim of "friendly fire".

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction... there was a unit from the US army," Mr Svinarov told a press conference."

Once again all the usual suspects jump on dop with name calling instead of debating the issue ... you know who I'm talking about ...

Trashmouth20, Kuntkawa and Dickheada.

Dop

I understand the Italians paid 1 million dollars ransom for this return. Wonder how much explosive that will by for future bombs?
I checked with several guys that ran check points in Iraq. They all said that reasonable warnings are always given to approaching vehicles that fail to stop at the many warning signs posted in several languages as you approach the check point.
They all said that anyone failing to stop after the warnings are assumed to be trying to kill you.

You arm chair critics need to put yourself in the position of being a guard in a war zone with a car barreling down on you!
I have never been a guard, but I have spent day after day with people trying to kill my ass and believe me you either react or don't come home.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
You arm chair critics need to put yourself in the position of being a guard in a war zone with a car barreling down on you!


There's a big difference, Dan, between an arm chair critic and someone that realizes there is a problem when every time we do this, it later turns out that the oncoming vehicle was friendly. Never once is it the enemy.

I don't pretend to know the answer but whatever I would come up with is better than a big fat sorry about that response.

Dop

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I understand the Italians paid 1 million dollars ransom for this return. Wonder how much explosive that will by for future bombs?

So ?
Does this mean they were right to shoot ?
Or if not, what do you mean ?

How would you all be reacting if this had been an american citizen that the Italians were rescuing? Or an american citezin that our own people were rescueing? What if the troops had shot and killed and= Ameican citezen and her american rescuer?

Actually Karan this thread is much less intelligent. All of the violent assholes on this board have merely given a free pass to the military even going so far as to insinuate that she wanted to get herself killed. You people are fucking ridiculas.

The driver and the reporter have both stated quite clearly:

--There was no checkpoint, it was a patrol.

--The car was not speeding. The driver is not an idiot.

--There was a spotlight placed on the car and then it was shot with 300-400 rounds and now that army claims it can no longer find the car for an investigation to take place.

--Both Italian and American troops knew she was on her way to the airport.

--Her Iraqi captors told her the Americans would try to kill her on her way home both because of her writings and her ransom being paid.

--Giuliana was on the cell phone with Burlisconi when when Americans 'cut the phones'.

--Americans initially delayed first aid from reaching the car.

Heres a good article on the US and the inciddent as well as accounts of the journalists the US has successfully murdered.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-of-dumb.html

Inform yourself...

Wounded Italian Reporter Recalls Ordeal

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4844625,00.html

++++++++++++++++

US attack against Italians in Baghdad was deliberate: companion

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

++++++++++++++++++

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found
By GIULIANA SGRENA

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

++++++++++++++++

Giuliana Sgrena : Means, Motive and Murder

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10151&l=i&size=1&hd=0

look, if you speed up to American checkpoints after curfew, at night, through all the warnings to stop you are going to get shot, period. put yourself in the shoes of the American soldiers manning those checkpoints, knowing that a suicide bomber could speed through all the warning to stop and blow your ass up at any time. what would you do? it takes a concerted effort to overlook all the circumstances and simply say they killed her on purpose. but who am I to say anything? you all are the true supporters of the troops. Except for of course how you always fail to consider the situation they are in and simply assume they always know everything that is going on and always have time to asses and analyze everything that happens, and since they do they must kill all of these innocent people on purpose. Seriously, things happen fast, you dont always ahve time to ask for someones ID before you act to protect yourself. At least try to look at things through the eyes of the Amerrican soldiers before instantly convicting them of murder. at least give them the level of concern you have for the al qeada down in GITMO

Don't forget Bulgaria ...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050307/wl_mideast_afp/iraqbulgariaitalytollus_050307162952

Dop

yup, we are completly out of control over there, we are now shooting our allies when we cant find any other lifeforms to exterminate. the only hope for the universe is if the americans start turning their weapons on each other, which we know will happen soon because we have already killed almost all the iraqis.

The powers that be have already turned weapons upon the American people for disagreeing with them. (Remember Kent State?) I have no doubt they will do it again.

Our government has too much power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Man am I glad we got this terrorist ...

Sleep well folks

is that a victim of the daily suicide bombings by the "freedom fighters"? I guess if it is posted by you it is a victim of bloodthirsty americans. your starting to bore me dop. get out of the 60's and join the modern world.

You make a lot of assumptions trav. With your way of thinking only the terrorists ever kill anyone and the entire war is their fault.

We know who sent americans to start a war.
We know who lied to us to get our support for this war.
We know who authorized torture in this war.

you have to give it to'em. they have this one size fits all explaination where we are right....no matter what ! and everybody else is wrong. im glad im in america, we get a " go straight to heaven, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars" pass. thanx travh. i no longer have to worry about being wrong, i can just say, "hey! i cant be wrong.......im an american "

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Man am I glad we got this terrorist ...

Sleep well folks

Speaking of dead babies.

Here is a baby killed by American killer doctors at the request of his Mama.

http://www.gospelbillboard.com/abortion.jpg

You'll get no argument from me old reb -- it's shameful to kill any child or infant (or anyone at all).

The difference is americans accept the wholesale killing of foreigners but not the wholesale killing of our own.

Clue me in -- what's the diff?

Dop

s that a victim of the daily suicide bombings by the "freedom fighters"? I guess if it is posted by you it is a victim of bloodthirsty americans. your starting to bore me dop. get out of the 60's and join the modern world.
Dont worry dop Travh will always think that in order to stop murderers, rapists, torturers, and terrorists it is OK to murder, rape, torture and terrorize. Its how hes able to live with himself.

Oh and dont forget his uncanny ability to ignore the facts!

The car was not speeding. The driver and the woman say so and it just makes fucking sense.

the drivers dead you dipshit

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
You'll get no argument from me old reb -- it's shameful to kill any child or infant (or anyone at all).

The difference is americans accept the wholesale killing of foreigners but not the wholesale killing of our own.

Clue me in -- what's the diff?

Dop

This is news to me. Clue me in so I can hate these evil devils like you do.

old reb

Puting words in my mouth old reb? Never called anyone evil devils ... never said I hated anyone. I was just posting in hopes of finding rational debate.

Still looking.

Dop

well, when you come out saying the troops killed her on purpose, your going to be looking for a long time, becasue there is no rationalizing with someoone as irational as you on the subject dop

Liberals will only believe the accounts of US troops if there is a Democratic president. As long as Bush is in office, they are lying their asses off.

the only way to stop the accidental killings is to stop the terrorist from targeting our troops.


http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/05.03.06.RulesofEngage-X.gif

The soldier, whose name was redacted in documents released by the Army on Friday in response to a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites), went on to say: "We fired warning shots at everyone, they would speed up to come at us, and we would shoot them. You couldn't tell who was in the car from where we were, we found that out later. . . . We didn't go through the cars digging around for stuff, we would just look in and see they were dead and could see there were women inside."

Another member of the division told investigators that he also saw women and children shot while approaching checkpoints.

"Basically, we were at a checkpoint, we had two Arabic signs that said to turn around or be shot. Once [they passed] . . . the first sign, they fired a warning shot. If they passed the second sign, they shot the vehicle. Sometimes there would be women and children in the car, but usually it was soldiers."

"Sometimes it bothers me," the man said. "What if they couldn't read the signs? But then what if they had a bomb in the car? We fired warning shots and they kept coming, so I think we did the right thing."

A third man in the unit separately told investigators that a colleague shot his weapon at "a hostile vehicle and it missed and hit a truck behind it, which housed a group of people."

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Puting words in my mouth old reb? Never called anyone evil devils ... never said I hated anyone. I was just posting in hopes of finding rational debate.

Still looking.

Dop

Hello Lungdop,

I just wanted a starting place. I didn't know that the US favored wholesale killing of foreigners. Your statement described evil devils. If Americans favor wholesale killing of foreigners, I will join you in opposing them devils.

Tell me you sad story.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Dont worry dop Travh will always think that in order to stop murderers, rapists, torturers, and terrorists it is OK to murder, rape, torture and terrorize. Its how hes able to live with himself.

Oh and dont forget his uncanny ability to ignore the facts!

The car was not speeding. The driver and the woman say so and it just makes fucking sense.

Hello 500,

What do you suggest we do with murders and rapist?

The woman says the car was not speeding. The woman's job is to wage journalist war against the US. The truth is nothing of importance to her.

Just remember, "... there's no such thing as bad publicity...".

Has anyone inspected the vehicle? What if that had been tampered with ... i.e. slow leak in the brake lines to gradually lose the brake fluid and make stopping the car difficult at best? Sure could make those Iraqi warnings look more like self-fulfilling prophesies than anything else.

As with most anything else, there's a lot more going on than meets the public eye.

Maybe it's time to reevaluate our process at the checkpoints.

How about if all vehicles are stopped by barrier a hundred yards from the checkpoint and all passengers have to get out of the vehicle.

Then a team of professionals, in all the proper gear approaches the individuals under protection of a team of crack snipers. One false move (and I mean one false move of any kind including sneezing and it's lights out ... er ... I mean brains out).

Once the people and the vehicle is checked and approved it is allowed to pass.

I mean, like, I just came up with that one off the top of my senile head -- surely the army can come up with something. Hell, make them strip down and bend over for the prostate exam ... whatever it takes to get the job done without anymore of these incidences, regardless of who is wrong.

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Maybe it's time to reevaluate our process at the checkpoints.

How about if all vehicles are stopped by barrier a hundred yards from the checkpoint and all passengers have to get out of the vehicle.

Then a team of professionals, in all the proper gear approaches the individuals under protection of a team of crack snipers. One false move (and I mean one false move of any kind including sneezing and it's lights out ... er ... I mean brains out).

Once the people and the vehicle is checked and approved it is allowed to pass.

I mean, like, I just came up with that one off the top of my senile head -- surely the army can come up with something. Hell, make them strip down and bend over for the prostate exam ... whatever it takes to get the job done without anymore of these incidences, regardless of who is wrong.

Dop


Lundong,
Looks like you have problem solving capabilities.

Some new details as to what happened have come out. First the checkpoint was not a regular checkpoint but was a tactical checkpoint, which is a mobile checkpoint placed in areas where special security is needed. Also, John Negroponte, the American Ambassador to Iraq was traveling on the same road at approximately the same time. Here is a link to the CNN article on the subject.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/08/italy.sgrena/index.html

I would guess that tensions were running high with such an important person in the area. He would be a prime target for the resistance. Any other traffic on that road in the middle of the night would have been suspicious, and a checkpoint in an unexpected location might have seemed suspicious to her driver. I am sure further details will be forthcoming, but right now I am leaning toward believing that this was a tragic mistake, not a deliberate attack.

- Italy's foreign minister said Tuesday that the car carrying an intelligence officer killed by U.S. fire in Iraq (news - web sites) last week was not speeding up and did not receive signals to stop, countering suggestions by American authorities.

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, speaking to parliament, also ruled out suggestions that the shooting that killed Nicola Calipari was the result of an ambush, but reiterated the government's demands for a full explanation from Washington.


Yahoo article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050308/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage)

The only question left on this issue is which country hates us the most right now? Italy or Bulgaria?

Thanks awol for ruining my name around the world.

Dop

I guess dop didnt get off the boat long enough to have to man a checkpoint in a hostile country at night.

Cheap shot trav.

I may have never manned a checkpoint but I've done my share of search and rescue -- pulling sailors, marines, airmen and soldiers out of rivers, bays, oceans and every other hell hole there is and with my life on the line.

Walk a mile in my shoes.

And quit making checkpoints look like rocket science ... there's always room for improving the process.

Dop

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
... there's always room for improving the process.

hey, thats definitely good advice... and if the message were as simple as that i would agree with you...

BUT

the whole "the attack was intentional" BS and the "troops are murderers" claim hangs like a black cloud over it. The only message you are trying to convey is that the military is a bunch of "murderers"..... not that the process needs improvement.

There's 2 sides to the story ... I'm wiling to listen to both -- are you?

Dop

OK wingers ... explain this one.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7802.htm

sick mofos

Dop

IF, and yes I say IF, those pics are indeed accurate and not fabricated, then we have 3 serious offenders on our hands who definitely need to be brought to justice. HOWEVER, that being said, we do not, and cannot know the true circumstances surrounding the pics or the situation transpiring in the pics. Do you honestly think that some 4th party stood by and shot these pics? Do you honestly think that IF they were commiting such a horrendous crime, they would allow their pics to be taken? Especially after all the outrage from the pics at Abu Gharib, etc.?

I have my doubts about the whole thing.

Dop, you say you're willing to listen to both sides of the story, here, but yet you're the one who is so quick to judge. To me, that's not listening to anything... that's playing judge and jury.

Cricket

You're shooting the messenger again. I tossed the pics out there for discussion.

The cool thing is we have no facts surrounding the pics so it will be interesting how many will defend the troops (without facts) and how many will condemn the troops (without facts).

So far you have defended them.

Dop

Not much happening in any of those photos. No muzzle flashes, no blood visible. Looks like a 'staged' photo op.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
[B]OK wingers ... explain this one.
--------------------------------------------
Dop, I do not think I am a (winger) but I do have some questions from the photos.
The first photo shows the victim in an alley way with no busted blocks around him.
Next photo shows his body found in a seemingly different location after an explosive has gone off. Big chunks of broken blocks around him. Hard to believe troops would have dragged his body over these blocks for a photo opt.
Next photo shows his body in a somewhat different location again, as if removed from the broken block area.
Without more information I would have to conclude that the troops found the body and removed it to a pick up area.
Unaware of the camera. Angle of sun suggests a different time of day. Has set up written on it.

I don't know if it has "set up" written on it, but jumping to any conclusion would be silly. Trying to decifer what happened from 3 or 4 snapshots is impossible. Especially when we don't know who took them, where they were taken, when they were taken and what motivated the cameraman to take them. Heck these could be old photos from vietnam for all we know.

I have seen some pictures of the car in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica and it doesn't look like the car standed 300 shots at all.
I don't know I'm starting to think the Italian journalist was high on drugs or something like that because it doesn't make sense what La Repubblica publishes and what the journalist said.
http://www.repubblica.it/index.html
Click on the front page news at FOTO:L'AUTO COLPITA (for those who cannot read Italian).

I most closely agree with Dan with these changes.

In pic one the troops handcuff the dude and make him kneel at the base of the building which they then call in to be taken out by ________ (fill in the blanks) knowing it will kill the guy and they won't be charged with the crime.

Pic 2: they are simply dragging the body out of the rubble and Pic 3 is where they placed him in the in pick-up zone -- mission accomplished as can be seen by the smirk on the soldiers face sitting with one leg up on the wall.

Dop

Looking at the picture of the car, I must agree that the car does not appear to have been hit by anything close to 300 shots. This does not mean that 300 shots were not fired, because some or most of them probably missed, although I would hope that our soldiers were better shots than this picture would indicate if indeed 300 shots were fired. I also doubt that the reporter was accurately counting the shots, and almost certainly exagerated the number, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
One thing I know for sure is that perceptions of what actually happened in a violent a scary incident often vary widely between observers. Humans are not cameras and tape recorders. We do not store objective information in our memories, although we often act as if we do. When the incident was actually happening the reporter was probably trying to figure out how to stay alive with all her attention. Only later did she have to figure out what happened, and recount it in an intelligible narrative. It is not surprising that her account is not accurate. It would also not be surprising if the soldiers accounts are not accurate for the same reasons. Eye witness testimony is often not factually accurate. Hopefully the investigation will be able to reconcile the accounts to some degree using the physical evidence, and hopefully everyone will participate honestly in that process without trying to force the outcome to back up their particulair political agendas.

the drivers dead you dipshit Or your uncanny ability to make Shit up...stupid motherfucker. No wonder no one listens to you.

The driver is alive, he was injured in the leg. The bodyguard is dead by blocking the bullet head for Giuliana Sgrena. Giuliana Sgrena was injured by a bullet or shrapnel in the shoulder.

Again

-the car was not speeding

-US and italian forces were alerted twice that she was coming

-the driver and the woman said there was no checkpoint and that it was a patrol. Has anyone seen a US official say it was a checkpoint?

yes, and we all sit in rapt attention whenever you post some stupid shit

If they did shoot 300 times, perhaps there were tons of warning shots prior to hitting the car. It just smells waayyy to fishy to me.

On Dop's photos - copyright "magnum photos" (http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/Home_MAG.aspx) is a legit enterprise.

What is Magnum Photos?

Magnum Photos is a photographic co-operative of great diversity and distinction owned by its photographer-members. With powerful individual vision, Magnum photographers chronicle the world and interpret its peoples, events, issues and personalities. Through its four editorial offices in New York, London, Paris and Tokyo, and a network of fifteen sub-agents, Magnum Photos provides photographs to the press, publishers, advertising, television, galleries and museums across the world.

The Magnum Photos library is a living archive updated daily with new work from across the globe. The library houses all the work produced by Magnum photographers and some special collections by non-members. There are approximately one million photographs in both print and transparency in the physical library with 250,000 images available online.

Within the library, most of the major world events and personalities from the Spanish Civil War to the present day are covered. There are constantly updated profiles on most countries of the world, covering industry, society and people, places of interest, politics and news events, disasters and conflict. The Magnum Photos library reflects all aspects of life throughout the world and the unparalleled sense of vision, imagination and brilliance of the greatest collective of documentary photographers. In short, when you picture an iconic image, but can't think who took it or where it can be found - it probably came from Magnum. BUT, one still cannot definitely determine the authenticity.

And, yes, Dop... I do side with the troops on this one. I cannot fathom that anyone - military or not - would just shoot this car, just for the sake of shooting it and killing an occupant, regardless of who was inside. I like to think I still have a bit of hope in my fellow man. (woman). :)

Originally posted by Imagineer

One thing I know for sure is that perceptions of what actually happened in a violent a scary incident often vary widely between observers. (…)Hopefully the investigation will be able to reconcile the accounts to some degree using the physical evidence, and hopefully everyone will participate honestly in that process without trying to force the outcome to back up their particulair political agendas.

Best post of that thread ! We all can argue for days about this sad event, but in fact we have to wait for the investigation (and hope it will be efficient and objective) since no one here has any more relevant information about what really happened.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
OK wingers ... explain this one.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7802.htm

sick mofos

Dop

While the soldier is dragging him, his body is in the same positions as he was in the first picture. I believe he was found dead.
If they had of just shot him they would be dragging a limp body.

American soldiers find assassinated bodys with their hands tied behind them everyday, it is a common practice for terrorist.

It is clever propaganda to blame the Americans for what the terrorist have done.

What this photo has in common with the agent killing is that they both are cases where Americans are blamed for someone else's killings.

old reb

What we have now is Giuliana's word against the American soldiers word.

I have read many of Giuliana's articles and there is one constant. The terrorist are ALWAYS good and the Americans are ALWAYS bad. So we can assume that her testimony about the events could be true or false but they will always favor the terrorist. So her word is worth shit.

The agent was shot through the temple, assassination style. Giuliana gets a shrapnel wound.

So, Old Reb says, The agent was incorruptible so he was assassinated in the vehicle, they use a slingshot to shrapnel shoot Giuliana with a "John Kerry" wound. They stop when the Americans fire warning shots and pretend the Americans killed the agent.

The fake kidnapping makes Giuliana a national hero whose every word is soaked up by the public. The Americans are viscious killers. The Terrorist are humane civil people. The terrorist get millions of ransom dollars. American soldiers are reluctant to defend themselves and become easier targets.

All in all, I say Giuliana had a very successful mission. Who can aruge with success.

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
What we have now is Giuliana's word against the American soldiers word.

What about the other italian secret service agents who were in the car ?

Originally posted by old-reb

I have read many of Giuliana's articles and there is one constant. The terrorist are ALWAYS good and the Americans are ALWAYS bad. So we can assume that her testimony about the events could be true or false but they will always favor the terrorist. So her word is worth shit.
I agree that Giuliana probably tends to dislike american soldiers and that it makes her testimony less credible. That does not mean "her word is woth shit" anyway. And once more the two italian agents who survived are also key witnesses, unlikely to be anti-war activists.

On the other hand, one could argue the american soldiers are not going to admit easily they shooted without warning, if they did. So their testimony are not more reliable.

Originally posted by old-reb

The agent was shot through the temple, assassination style. Giuliana gets a shrapnel wound.

So, Old Reb says, The agent was incorruptible so he was assassinated in the vehicle, they use a slingshot to shrapnel shoot Giuliana with a "John Kerry" wound(…)


Great. Old Reb, you should write spy novels for kids - but please when talking about true stories, stick to the facts.

Can't you just admit sometimes the american soldiers make mistakes ? is that too much for you just to say "I don't know what happened" ?

When the space shuttle burned up across the USA. There was a lot of speculation about what caused the crash. With the first available information most people concluded it was the foam from the gas tank. After a year of investigation, the cause of the crash was found to be the foam from the gas tank.

So without the final investigation the truth can often be predicted by what IS known.

old reb

Italy's Ransom
Rome adopts a policy of deliberately aiding terrorism.

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

Americans join Italians in mourning the death of Italian secret service officer Nicola Calipari, whose funeral was held in Rome on Monday. Agent Calipari died a hero last Friday, reportedly using his body to shield freed journalist/hostage Giuliana Sgrena from gunfire as their car approached American troops near Baghdad Airport. So perhaps Ms. Sgrena will also shed a tear for the Americans and Iraqis who will die because of the ransom that was paid for her release.

So far, all the world's moral anger has focused on the claim that U.S. soldiers were reckless, or even tried to "assassinate" her, as Ms. Sgrena's newspaper, the communist Il Manifesto, put it. But her claims in some interviews that her car was moving slowly and cautiously are contradicted by, well, Ms. Sgrena.

Her own account of the fateful journey, published Sunday, has them traveling so fast they were "losing control" and laughing about what an irony it would be if they had an accident after all that had happened. In other words, they probably looked like a suicide car bomber to a scared American solider who had to make a split-second decision at night. (The military declines to give figures on car bombs specifically for operational security reasons. But "explosive devices" of various kinds are by far the leading killers in Iraq, accounting for close to half of all deaths from hostile fire, and nearly twice as many as gunshot wounds.)

Arguably far more reckless was Italy's decision to pay ransom--reportedly of $6 million or more--to secure her release. Italy is also believed to have paid ransom for the release of two aid workers taken captive last year. The Italians know the U.S. opposes the policy, which may be why Ms. Sgrena's transfer to the airport was not sufficiently coordinated with U.S. forces.

Not only does paying ransom encourage more kidnapping--of Italians especially--it also puts money in the hands of the enemy in a country where $40 buys an automatic rifle and $200 an attack on U.S. forces. The shooting of a speeding car at a military checkpoint in a war zone is an unintentional tragedy, but the paying of ransom amounts to a policy of deliberately aiding terrorists.

What is your source ?
Where did they get these figures ?

The italian govt denied a ransom was paid.

Anyway, even if it was, I would not call that "deliberately aiding terrorism".

The logic behind this article is rather odd.

It is :
1- Mrs Sgrena said they were "loosing control" and "joking" (out of context quote - we don't know if she was talking about the way they were driving when the shooting occured).
2- So the car probably looked like a suicide bomb car and the soldiers were right to shoot.
3- In fact it's the italian govt who is reckless since they paid a ransom (no sources)

So the US soldiers were right to shoot and the italian victims were liars and supported terrorism. they almost deserved to die. That justifies afterwards the "mistake" (which was not a mistake but a sound decision).
Note that in fact supports Mrs Sgrena's conspiracy theory about the Americans wanting to shoot her because a ransom was paid.


Soon we'll learn that Berlusconi shelters Ben Laden and that Mrs Sgrena is in fact the devil.

No wonder Bush's allies are becoming fewer if they are considered that way.

Originally posted by astrapol2
What is your source ?
Where did they get these figures ?

The italian govt denied a ransom was paid.

Anyway, even if it was, I would not call that "deliberately aiding terrorism".

The logic behind this article is rather odd.

It is :
1- Mrs Sgrena said they were "loosing control" and "joking" (out of context quote - we don't know if she was talking about the way they were driving when the shooting occured).
2- So the car probably looked like a suicide bomb car and the soldiers were right to shoot.
3- In fact it's the italian govt who is reckless since they paid a ransom (no sources)

So the US soldiers were right to shoot and the italian victims were liars and supported terrorism. they almost deserved to die. That justifies afterwards the "mistake" (which was not a mistake but a sound decision).
Note that in fact supports Mrs Sgrena's conspiracy theory about the Americans wanting to shoot her because a ransom was paid.


Soon we'll learn that Berlusconi shelters Ben Laden and that Mrs Sgrena is in fact the devil.

No wonder Bush's allies are becoming fewer if they are considered that way.

Astro,

You are leaving the circle of rationality. Could it be that you are driven by emotion instead of reason?

old reb

From the outside looking in, who could blame Astrapol - the media would have you think the entire world is ready to throw in the towel on the good ol' USA.

military or not - would just shoot this car, just for the sake of shooting it and killing an occupant, regardless of who was inside Thats the point. The US had plenty of reasons to want this woman dead.

Rome adopts a policy of deliberately aiding terrorism Sigh. If the US was unable to rescue her she has every right to use any means necessary to save herself.
Besides that the ransom is suppossedly 1 million dollars. Maybe if the US allowed journalists who were "in bed-ded" to write whatever they want she would have accompanied them. As it is the US readily pushes out any reporter who doesnt tow the line. Im sure you were one the virulant assholes who threatened the journalist who posted the video of the Marine muderering the wounded Iraq in violation of the Genva conventions.

You are leaving the circle of rationality.
Were you ever in it?

Still waiting for verification of the photo because last I heard Us forces mysteriously couldnt find it...In addition LGF and other sites erroneously posted pictures of the car she was abducted from as oppossedto the car she was rescued in.