I receintly had a very intense conversation with a very lovely lady. We were both talking about the Bible when she mentioned something to me that really had me thinking...

She says that when she was little, her grandmother told her that somehere in the bible, there is a story about the Devil and how he became Gods enemy. Somewhere in there it is supposed to read that the Devil "Lucifer" was once an angel. Not just any angel either, he was second in command only to God himself, even higher than Jesus is. The Devil made an attempt to overthrow Heaven and managed to turn more than one-third of all Gods angels against him. In retaliation, God cast both him and all of the rebel angels out of heaven and banished them down to earth. Although I never saw this in the Bible anywhere for myself, the question arose that had me really thinking..

Do you think that as Mortal Beings born with sin..that we may be that one-third? :(


I always thought that Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was responsible for our sins, but one would think that God would not place such a horrible burden on all of his own creation that he made in his own image simply because two people disobeyed him.

What do you think if this? If what she says is true, where in the bible can proof of this be found?

thats what i believe happened. BUT i dont know where its at. i wish i did. i do want to read that.

Wasnt that Azazeal and the Angels were the Nepherim or something like that.

Originally posted by Dunkirk101


What do you think if this? If what she says is true, where in the bible can proof of this be found?
----------------------------------------------------------
It is debateable whether proof is something written in the Bible.
It is a good myth though. Interesting to read in the Bible of wars in heaven when we are supposed to seek peace on earth.
Does not seem logical that something that can not be attained in heaven would be expected of us.
In essence the Bible is saying that God could not control Satan and his followers therefore the solution was to extradite him/them.

Supposedly Satan challenged Gods authority. God had the Angel Michael throw Satan out. An interesting note is that I am writing this about Michael and Satan as the History channel is saying these words on t.v. Is this a sign? :)

I learned that as well.


maybe look it up on:

http://www.biblegateway.com


Kind Regards,

Rachel :)

Originally posted by Dunkirk101
it is supposed to read that the Devil "Lucifer" was once an angel. Not just any angel either, he was second in command only to God himself, even higher than Jesus is.

there would be a problem with this because alot of folks believe Christ and God are one in the same

The Devil made an attempt to overthrow Heaven and managed to turn more than one-third of all Gods angels against him. In retaliation, God cast both him and all of the rebel angels out of heaven and banished them down to earth. Although I never saw this in the Bible anywhere for myself, the question arose that had me really thinking..

Do you think that as Mortal Beings born with sin..that we may be that one-third? :(

I may be missunderstanding your question, but are you saying we are one with the devil? This would make no sense because a new born {which most of us were at one time :)} doesn't know what sin is yet. also if we are taught to believe that we are Gods creatures then this would be a very nasty trick played by God.


I always thought that Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was responsible for our sins, but one would think that God would not place such a horrible burden on all of his own creation that he made in his own image simply because two people disobeyed him.

which would you rather feel happened? Thrown to earth because your a hells angle, or thrown to earth to learn that you are not perfect and that you have the choice to not sin and go to heaven?

First up, Lucifer means "Light giver" or "light bearer" and this name was logically first giving to Jesus as well as Venus. Of course in literary tradition its accepted that Satan was called Lucifer before the fall from heaven. He got kicked out of Heaven because he commited the Sin of Pride, an act of pure Egoism,, he loved himself above everything else which i guess means God as well and so being that everyone must love God uncondtionally that didnt go down well. It would seem he at times sat on the heavenly throne and basically took the piss.

Micheal the Archangel fronts him, and after a hefty angelic war succeds in banishing Lucifer to 'Hell', The angels who sided with him became demons and he ruled over them, God of the underworld.

mad dog:
a new born {which most of us were at one time } doesn't know what sin is yet
Ummm, even the children are guilty of sinning, though they did not sin themselves. "In Adam and Eve we all sinned."

As to your question, Dunkirk, there is nothing concerning that in the Bible. It does say that Satan was an angel and that he was cast down from heaven. What you are referring to is probably from Apocryph writings, which are not included in the Canonical Bible (and for a good reason).
Also, to take this opportunity, I want to dismiss a common myth about devil. He is not god/king/ruler of hell, because hell is a place prepared for his and his followers' punishment.

at least the devil jams...bill hicks

Originally posted by Tapeworm
at least the devil jams...bill hicks

"surfing on the lake of fire, high-fiving the devil..."

I guess Bill now practises what he so gloriously preached.

:D

Welcome to the forum.

The great thing :) about the three holy religions is that they all have almost the same stories about His Holiness and His Angels and the such...

I know that your question was about the bible, I just couldn't help but post...

In Islam, the Devil used to be an angel until God created Adam and ordered the Angels to bow at Adam's feet. All obeyed except for the Devil who used to go by the name Azazeal (as an Angel). God cursed him by kicking him out of His Mercy, and Azazeal swore to get revenge by menacing God's creation, the human being. His name, as the Devil, became Iblees.
And he started with Adam and the whole Forbidden Fruit thing.

The Devil and his followers (human sinners and ghost sinners) are all subject to burning in hell. Adam was sent to earth for the fruit he has eaten, his children make up for what he did to get to Heaven in the long run.
By this, God tests our patience on earth by making us go through hard things and seeing if we still believe in His Mercy or not.



This whole:
"Why'd He punish us as well for Adam's mistake? It wasn't our fault" thing is pretty interesting, I'll have to discuss this with a scholar.
Though I think that I kind of already know the answer:
Even if we weren't all sent to Earth for Adam's mistake, we'd all make the same mistake and pull an apple out of the Forbidden Tree out of curiousity.

:)

I dont really believe the whole forbidden fruit story. I always feel that it is a bit distorted. I think it is more in line with the myth of the Tree of Knowlege and the Tree of Life. Humans gave up the ladder in favor of the former.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Ummm, even the children are guilty of sinning, though they did not sin themselves. "In Adam and Eve we all sinned."
I am not, nor was I ever, Adam or Eve. I have not done anything that Adam or Eve have done. As far as I know, no newborn is THE Adam or Eve (though they may be named as such). How can God fault babies for what their supposed ancestors did twenty bajillion years ago?
Originally posted by Evil Homer
Humans gave up the ladder in favor of the former.
Luckily, we can buy a new one at Home Depot. :)

I am not, nor was I ever, Adam or Eve. I have not done anything that Adam or Eve have done. As far as I know, no newborn is THE Adam or Eve (though they may be named as such). How can God fault babies for what their supposed ancestors did twenty bajillion years ago?
Because you have intelligence, knowledge and wisdom. All of which, theologically, came from the "forbidden fruit" off of the tree of knowledge. Hmm, I wonder if retards are exempt...

Originally posted by Blibblob
Because you have intelligence, knowledge and wisdom.
Babies only have one of the three, and even that one does not always occur...

Babies only have one of the three, and even that one does not always occur...
Are you sure? Anyways, supposidly there's a debate on that too.

hey, ive been thinking. Loki, about what you said as Lucifer meaning light giver. Upon further pondering, the lucifer cast out from heaven sounds a lot like prometheus. Lucifer gives man knowlege (forbidden fruit) and is cast out from heaven. Prometheus gives man fire (light) and he is also condemned by the gods. Sounds like copyright infringement to me.

You can look at it two ways: the Bible is copying other stories. Or other stories are copying the Bible. (not caring about the time)

in order to copy something, it had to come before you. these other stories came way before the bible or christianity was known.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
hey, ive been thinking. Loki, about what you said as Lucifer meaning light giver. Upon further pondering, the lucifer cast out from heaven sounds a lot like prometheus. Lucifer gives man knowlege (forbidden fruit) and is cast out from heaven. Prometheus gives man fire (light) and he is also condemned by the gods. Sounds like copyright infringement to me.

very interesting... you do realize that Prometheus is considered a "helper" of mankind...
"And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good"
Yes, Satan was initially God's right hand, and brought to humanity the greatest, the first of the goodies.
You are wrong when saying that Lucifer was cast out of heaven because of the "forbidden fruit" story, it was long time before that.

Hi to everyone, sorry for interrupting

in order to copy something, it had to come before you. these other stories came way before the bible or christianity was known.

no Christianity came before the other religions. the greek, roman, celtic and all these other ones came after. they were the....islams of their time. they fell away from christianity and made there own religion.



I always thought that Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was responsible for our sins, but one would think that God would not place such a horrible burden on all of his own creation that he made in his own image simply because two people disobeyed him.

God had to place that burden on us to teach us that we get punishments for falling into satans temptation.

Originally posted by Rhojura
no Christianity came before the other religions. the greek, roman, celtic and all these other ones came after. they were the....islams of their time. they fell away from christianity and made there own religion.

WWWHHHAAATTT??????? Where did you ever learn this line of bull? I quess dino's came after humans also :D

WWWHHHAAATTT??????? Where did you ever learn this line of bull? I quess dino's came after humans also

christianity had to have come before. god made adam and eve. they believed in him making them christian. therefore it being the first religion. ^.^ i guess thats just how i see it

Doesn't Christianity require the birth of Christ before it becomes an existing religion?

Originally posted by Rhojura
christianity had to have come before. god made adam and eve. they believed in him making them christian. therefore it being the first religion. ^.^ i guess thats just how i see it
Adam and Eve, according to the Bible, were Jewish...Abraham was Jewish...EVERYONE in the Old Testament was Jewish. Jesus himself was Jewish. Christianity as a religion didn't even EXIST until Christ was born. Saying Christianity was the first religion is just fucking stupid...

Rhojura If I wrote a book today and said that the car was 1st then came the horse and buggy would you believe that? There may come a time when the horse and buggy are used again{anything is posible} but the fact remains the car did not come 1st. Adam and Eve is just a story with NO fact that backs it up. We have proof that does show many other religious practices before the Bible or Christainity. This is why it is hard to believe in a book that claims to know all but didn't come about untill thousands of years after the human race had allready been around. Just because a book is written does not mean it is true. This book was written at a time when there was a need to form a group so it needed to sound like the real deal all truth all knowing. How good would the Bible have been if it claimed to know about God but then turned around and didn't answer any questions{even made up answers are better then none}? I'm quessing not very good, you can't get followers by writting bad notes and stories with no meanings.

Adam and Eve, according to the Bible, were Jewish...Abraham was Jewish...EVERYONE in the Old Testament was Jewish. Jesus himself was Jewish. Christianity as a religion didn't even EXIST until Christ was born. Saying Christianity was the first religion is just fucking stupid...

they may have been jewish but who the hell did they believe in?? GOD!!! making it a form of christianity...

Rhojura If I wrote a book today and said that the car was 1st then came the horse and buggy would you believe that? There may come a time when the horse and buggy are used again{anything is posible} but the fact remains the car did not come 1st. Adam and Eve is just a story with NO fact that backs it up. We have proof that does show many other religious practices before the Bible or Christainity. This is why it is hard to believe in a book that claims to know all but didn't come about untill thousands of years after the human race had allready been around. Just because a book is written does not mean it is true. This book was written at a time when there was a need to form a group so it needed to sound like the real deal all truth all knowing. How good would the Bible have been if it claimed to know about God but then turned around and didn't answer any questions{even made up answers are better then none}? I'm quessing not very good, you can't get followers by writting bad notes and stories with no meanings.

of course i wouldnt believe you. there is hardcore documentation on that. i believe in what i know. and what i was taught.

Originally posted by Rhojura
they may have been jewish but who the hell did they believe in?? GOD!!! making it a form of christianity...



For your own sake id stop talking now, otherwise your going to be made to look like a total retard.

Originally posted by Rhojura


of course i wouldnt believe you. there is hardcore documentation on that. i believe in what i know. and what i was taught.

Did i just read that correctly!!!

You wouldnt believe Mad Dogs story because its hardcore?? Youll only believe things you know and what your told.

Are you a Christian because they love people like you.

GOD!!! making it a form of christianity...

I think atheists and theists will unite in agreeing that mere belief in god does not a christian make.

"Jesus of Nazareth was one of those who claimed to be the Messiah... racially and religiously Jesus was born, lived, and died a loyal Jew."

why would Jesus have been jewish if it wasnt the "christian" thing to do?? i know that the Jewish religion is a form of Judaism, but it has a lot of the same elements as christianity. thats where im coming from. its the same as being able to call a Satanist a Christian. they believe in a lot of the same things. they only have their minor differences.

i know that i have no evidence to prove christianity, but in that sense you have none to prove me wrong. we believe what we believe. that is what faith is. believeing in something that cannot be proven right or wrong. no matter what you say you wont prove me wrong. you cant tell me im wrong. that would be like me saying that having no religion at all is stupid. i dont think like that. you may not have a religion but i do. me believing in what i do is part of me. its who i am. its inside of me. that is MY faith. you people dont seem to get that. you are here to try to prove me wrong. thats bull. re-think what you say from now on before you do say anything, cause then you just seem to make asses out of yourself.

Rhojura............... Rhojura........

I don't know where to start........

All religion pretty much states the same things. Just because something has "elements of Christianity" doesn't make it Christianity. Christianity is an amalgamation of older traditions, borrowing most heavily from Judaism ("Jewish", "Judiasm", and "Hebrew" all refer to the same religion by the way).

I am going to have to say that Judiasm started with Abraham. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel and all those cats were before organized religion.

Ultimately, the myths about the beginning of the world are metaphors. Even in the King James Bible God marks Cain so he won't be killed by "others" who might find him. If Adam and Eve were the first two then how would there be "others" out there to molest their oldest boy.

Your sig:

"Forgive me father,
For I am sin..."

It's "Forgive me father, for I HAVE SINNED"

i know that its not Christianity. im just stating that they are all the same in there forms. they all came from eachother. it was just certain people didnt like something so they went their own way.

Ultimately, the myths about the beginning of the world are metaphors. Even in the King James Bible God marks Cain so he won't be killed by "others" who might find him. If Adam and Eve were the first two then how would there be "others" out there to molest their oldest boy.

ok this is something that i have really wondered about. after cain walks around for a while all of a sudden he stumbles apon a town?? i think anyway. where did these people come from?? if Adam and Eve were the first then that would make these other people.....brother/sisters to Cain?? hmmm...something ive always wondered about.

Your sig:

"Forgive me father,
For I am sin..."

It's "Forgive me father, for I HAVE SINNED"


oi! do you honestly think that i dont know that?? i heard that on a movie a long time ago, and ever since i heard it ive been using it.

My mistake about the sig, then.

My mistake about the sig, then.


hehehe thats fine ^.^

Originally posted by Rhojura
they may have been jewish but who the hell did they believe in?? GOD!!! making it a form of christianity...
Correction: Christianity is a form of Judaism.
i know that the Jewish religion is a form of Judaism
Uh, what? The Jewish religion is Judaism. People who follow Judaism are called Jews, and their holy book is called the Torah. They don't eat pork. Millions of them were killed during WWII.
its the same as being able to call a Satanist a Christian. they believe in a lot of the same things. they only have their minor differences.
Um, no, not really...Satanists believe in about nothing that Christians do...
i know that i have no evidence to prove christianity, but in that sense you have none to prove me wrong. we believe what we believe. that is what faith is. believeing in something that cannot be proven right or wrong. no matter what you say you wont prove me wrong. you cant tell me im wrong. that would be like me saying that having no religion at all is stupid. i dont think like that. you may not have a religion but i do. me believing in what i do is part of me. its who i am. its inside of me. that is MY faith. you people dont seem to get that. you are here to try to prove me wrong. thats bull. re-think what you say from now on before you do say anything, cause then you just seem to make asses out of yourself.
I think everyone on Allforums would agree that we can't disprove the existence of a deity. No one has even tried. We've refuted your points, of course, but there is a difference between the two things.
i know that its not Christianity. im just stating that they are all the same in there forms. they all came from eachother. it was just certain people didnt like something so they went their own way.
I guarantee you, the various Native American religions, African religions, Hinduism, and a few others are 100% entirely unrelated to the Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, which are the same except for very minor differences).

Originally posted by Rhojura
its the same as being able to call a Satanist a Christian. they believe in a lot of the same things. they only have their minor differences.


ITs painfully different, Fo instance there is no "God", you are your own God. There isnt a Jesus, there isnt a Mary... no adam and eve. They dont go to church on a sunday :) the list could go on

Do you think that as Mortal Beings born with sin..that we may be that one-third?

No we are not that one third because an angel is not human nor does it say anywhere in the Bible that humans were once angels nor will we ever be angels.

I always thought that Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit was responsible for our sins, but one would think that God would not place such a horrible burden on all of his own creation that he made in his own image simply because two people disobeyed him.

It's not literal...it's a story about creation. It is a story to explain the presence of good and evil. In our universe all things have an opposite so in theory if there is perfect good then there must be total evil. As the story goes the most perfect and powerful angel rebelled against God because he wished to be god. Thus he was cast out of heaven into the abyss.

Later in the Garden of Eden Lucifer assumes the body of a snake in order to tempt Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge. Once she had eaten from the tree she had knowledge of good and bad...therefore innocence was lost.

What do you think if this? If what she says is true, where in the bible can proof of this be found?

She's likely Catholic because I remember that story from about grade three, so unless you have a Catholic bible you are unlikely to find it in a regular King James version. If I find anything in my Catholic version I will post back.

Ed Blank:
If Adam and Eve were the first two then how would there be "others" out there to molest their oldest boy.
What!?!?
Rhojura:
ok this is something that i have really wondered about. after cain walks around for a while all of a sudden he stumbles apon a town??
Lol! He doesn't stumble upon a town, he makes one. Also, keep in mind that those guys lived a long long long time and had many many many wives. See where I am going with this? They multiplied faster than you could count them up.

Sal:
It's not literal...it's a story about creation.
WOW! Really? You don't think there was a woman who took the apple from the tree and the garden and the....wow....

Lol! He doesn't stumble upon a town, he makes one. Also, keep in mind that those guys lived a long long long time and had many many many wives. See where I am going with this? They multiplied faster than you could count them up.

...but how could cain had had many many many wives?? were those wives of his....his sisters?? and are you for sure that they lived a long time?? there time isnt the same as ours. so how do you know that he didnt live to be....75??

Originally posted by Rhojura
there time isnt the same as ours. so how do you know that he didnt live to be....75??

Where is this coming from!!!???

Originally posted by Rhojura
...but how could cain had had many many many wives?? were those wives of his....his sisters?? and are you for sure that they lived a long time?? there time isnt the same as ours. so how do you know that he didnt live to be....75??
It says somewhere in Genesis that Adam & Eve had kids after having something like great-great-greatgrandkids already...

Lol! He doesn't stumble upon a town, he makes one. Also, keep in mind that those guys lived a long long long time and had many many many wives. See where I am going with this? They multiplied faster than you could count them up.
If you see what I have below, then he finds the land of Nod and randomly a wife appears and he has ONE son. And ONE wife. Adam and Eve lived for a VERY long time because after the two sons, one of which died, they had even ANOTHER. This bizarre soap opera is directly cateloged below, and since this is the bible and there is absolutely no other historical accounts with which to verify this, only what is in the bible can be considered "true". Therefore, there are serious inconsistancies in there, and nobody I have seen has been capable of fixing them unless you follow the begining of Genesis which populated the earth and then God made Adam later and put him in Eden.


I give unto you, the whole of Genesis four!

Genesis 4
Cain Murders Abel

Cain and Abel
(A) 1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD." 2Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. 4Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, 5but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
6So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

8Now Cain talked with Abel his brother;[a] and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

9Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?"

He said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"

10And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth."

13And Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."

15And the LORD said to him, "Therefore,[b] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.



The Family of Cain
16Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son--Enoch. 18To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael, and Mehujael begot Methushael, and Methushael begot Lamech.
19Then Lamech took for himself two wives: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah. 20And Adah bore Jabal. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21His brother's name was Jubal. He was the father of all those who play the harp and flute. 22And as for Zillah, she also bore Tubal-Cain, an instructor of every craftsman in bronze and iron. And the sister of Tubal-Cain was Naamah.

23Then Lamech said to his wives:
"Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
24If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."



A New Son
25And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, "For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed." 26And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the LORD.




AND! The direct english translation of it from the Torah!

15 And the LORD said unto him: 'Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the LORD set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch; and he builded a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son Enoch. 18 And unto Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael; and Mehujael begot Methushael; and Methushael begot Lamech. 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives; the name of one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of such as dwell in tents and have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe. 22 And Zillah, she also bore Tubal-cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. 23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech; for I have slain a man for wounding me, and a young man for bruising me; 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son, and called his name Seth: 'for God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.' 26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh; then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. {S}

I always liked the Vampire The Masquerade version of Cain, such reverance for him :)

What a mixed up story.
First you have 2 people created where there was no people.
They have kids that marry people from nowhere.
Killings, woundings, revenge runs rampant.

CONCLUSION: DO NOT OFFER GOD FRUIT.

Also, if this myth were true about the source of man, DNA testing would be useless. We would all be related. :)

OHHH ok, i remember reading that. but there were so many names that it confussed me. i planned on reading it again but i never got around to it. ^.^

and with the time thing. i read that the time back then wasnt exactly like ours. so yea im not sure. ill have to look that up again. but from what i read there time was much faster than ours. and there months werent as long. and there wasnt as many, but like i said ill have to look that up.

Dan Fussell:
Also, if this myth were true about the source of man, DNA testing would be useless. We would all be related.
I hope it was a joke...cause otherwise it is the most ignorant statement ever.

Also, here is the explanation for Adam/Eve/Cain/Children stuff:
Adam+Eve=Abel/Cain/Seth AND many many many many YES many other children, who are not mentioned in the Bible directly. Why? Because it is not concerned with them! The purpose of OT is to trace the descendants of two cities: city of God and city of men, one from Seth other from Seth.
Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve had ONLY 3 children or that Cain had ONLY one wife.
Long story short: all of them had a ton of wives and a wagon full of kids.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Also, here is the explanation for Adam/Eve/Cain/Children stuff:
Adam+Eve=Abel/Cain/Seth AND many many many many YES many other children, who are not mentioned in the Bible directly. Why? Because it is not concerned with them! The purpose of OT is to trace the descendants of two cities: city of God and city of men, one from Seth other from Seth.
Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve had ONLY 3 children or that Cain had ONLY one wife.
Long story short: all of them had a ton of wives and a wagon full of kids.
What evidence do you have for this?

The Bible. What else?
Oh, wait. They found a fossil of Adam lying with Eve. The tombstone said: "The first two people on earth." Didn't you hear?

Wow. It seems that Adam and Eve did not know anything about protection. Free sex, and a lot of it; are you sure they were banned from the garden of Eden or the other way around?

Actually in some Nordic religions they view heaven as a whole bunch of naked ladies waiting for you.

Oh, did Adam have sex with his wife, daughter, granddaughter, and so on?
Why wasn't he slapped by the mighty hand?

Originally posted by STOpandthink
The Bible. What else?
"Adam+Eve=Abel/Cain/Seth AND many many many many YES many other children, who are not mentioned in the Bible directly."

"Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve had ONLY 3 children or that Cain had ONLY one wife."

You just said that it's not in the Bible. Now you say it is in the Bible. Please explain...

You you were asked for evidence and you said

Originally posted by STOpandthink

The Bible. What else?

but the post before that said..

Originally posted by STOpandthink
who are not mentioned in the Bible directly.

Not that i didnt know you were full of shit before, but this just helps everyone else realise it.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Dan Fussell:

I hope it was a joke...cause otherwise it is the most ignorant statement ever.


After you're done explaining the ignorance in your posts, perhaps you could explain the ignorance in Dan's statement.

Vile please... none of use have that long left in our lifes to read all of StopandThinks ignorance.

I growing tired of this nonsense. It seems you guys are so entombed in your own opinion, there is no way for me to crack it. The worst part is that you can't even see the simple logical mistakes you are making.

As concerning my "contradiction" of myself, well, obviously there isn't any contradiction at all. The Bible does not mention any other children of Adam and Eve other than that three. Though, any person with common sense would understand that there were many many children. From them and from their children. I would suggest reading St. Augustine's City of God. It will answer a lot of your questions.

I know this goes back a while, but didn't Christianity come into view sometime close to the fall of the Roman Empire and later the creation of the Eastern Roman Empire?

Second, im sorry if it sounded like it, but I know that Lucifer didn't get banished because of the fruit thing. But still, there are many parallels between Lucifer and Prometheus.

As for the Adam and Eve story. It can't just be those two people, there isn't enough diversity. As i believe Dan said earlier (sry if im wrong) all our DNA would be the same and there'd be some freaky shit goin on in our gene pool. The only logical way that there could be the human population as we know it is if God created more people. But I don't think that is mentioned in the Bible.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I would suggest reading St. Augustine's City of God. It will answer a lot of your questions.

first, you admit it is not in the bible.

Then, yousay the Bible is your reference for the claim.

Now, you point to another book, ---one that I can only presume you find more authorative than the Bible--- and say the proof will be found there.

Surely....surely....SURELY you cannot be so blind as to be unaware how illogical your position is, and how irrational your methodology in presenting it?!?!?!?!?

Can you?!?!?!

Please TRY to come to grips with reality for a fleeting moment......you previously claimed --""Long story short: all of them had a ton of wives and a wagon full of kids.""

WHERE did all those ""wives"" come from, if they were not the offspring of Adam and Eve?!!?!?

It is so obvious that it is a MYTH.....a poorly conceived myth, a nonsensical myth, a myth that pales in comparison to many other fanciful myths, especically in terms of believability...........but still, just a myth.......

Why don't you just save face while you can STOpandThink, and admit that the whole Adam 'n Eve tale is a myth?!?!.....

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I growing tired of this nonsense. It seems you guys are so entombed in your own opinion, there is no way for me to crack it. The worst part is that you can't even see the simple logical mistakes you are making.

{a} entombed in our opinion, could you please get up and go look in a mirror, now tell us who is stuck in their own opinion.

{b}Here you go again with the logic garbage, well I believe in dragons just read Harry P. All we are trying to do is have you show us proof, not fairy tails or what your preacher tells you. And also Dan makes a good point

Evil Homer, there were no more people created. As I am sure you all know, DNA has a tendency to mutate. Also, when a child is born, the DNA is composed of the mix of the parents' DNA. Mix/match and you can have as many combinations as you want. I really don't see a problem here.

Freethinker, you said:"WHERE did all those ""wives"" come from, if they were not the offspring of Adam and Eve?!!?!?"
Yes. They did come from Adam and Eve. Here we go:
Adam + Eve
|
V
many kids (boys and girls)
|
V
many more kids by those kids.

Now, does that make it clearer?
I don't think St. Augustine has more authority than the Bible, that would be ridiculous. Instead of trying to describe how the above picture is so obvious, I pointed to him, because he explains it really well. He is a saint, he bases his logic and believes on the Bible. I don't see why I can't "use" him. Though, I certainly don't have to. I don't see anything wrong with the idea that two people had a lot of kids to populate the Earth.

mad dog, I am tired of saying it: "There is no proof!!!" If there was, everybody would be Christians by now. I would have started with that proof. But there is none. How can there be? Where would the faith be then? God wants us to open our eyes and SEE for ourselves that the truth is with Him, that He is the Truth and the Life.
You may call me lazy, but everytime I read one of you guys' posts, I know exactly where your weakness is and how to point out your mistake (well, most of the times), but I am really tired of spending hours, typing and typing and typing, just for you to go "blah!" and throw out another statement for me to pick apart.

I think my posts are clear, I think my argument about Adam and Eve is clear. If it is not, I beg forgiveness, for I failed. I am ready to debate this point till I am green, but so that you would understand it.

STOp
I am really tired of spending hours, typing and typing and typing, just for you to go "blah!"

I can honestly say I've been thinking this of you recently. After I took the trouble to respond to a post you made recently you just turned round and said "you are in a fortress, Blob". Here's the page:

http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=118618&highlight=fortress#post118618


It made me think "whatever I type STOp just turns round and says 'you know nothing, think the same as me'". Seriously, I might as well have written in Chinese. You didn't address anything I said, and it's not the first time. Sadly, it's getting to the point where I'm wondering why I bother investing time listening to you and then responding. It's like talking to a brick wall.

People in glass houses, STOp....

Well, I guess the feeling is mutual.
Though, by saying "you are in a fortress", I think I addressed all your comments. I basically said that I can't disprove any of them. You are in a little corner where I can't get to you, a safe haven.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
What a mixed up story.
First you have 2 people created where there was no people.
They have kids that marry people from nowhere.
Killings, woundings, revenge runs rampant.

CONCLUSION: DO NOT OFFER GOD FRUIT.

no kidding...that always royally pissed me off when I was a kid sitting in class with this old nun trying to drill this stuff into us. I remember thinking...poor f!@#ing Cain...the fact that he was a farmer rather than a rancher was a HUGE rip off... LOL. To me Abel did nothing to please God more... he was just lucky...

I'd pick the steak myself though :cool:

Evil Homer, there were no more people created. As I am sure you all know, DNA has a tendency to mutate. Also, when a child is born, the DNA is composed of the mix of the parents' DNA. Mix/match and you can have as many combinations as you want. I really don't see a problem here.
Not enough in 1,000, 2,000, 5,000, 6,000 years, no matter how many children you have. The Bible accounts for the world being in existance for around 6000 years. Only 4000 years to create black people and white people from one bloodline? Impossible.

Freethinker, you said:"WHERE did all those ""wives"" come from, if they were not the offspring of Adam and Eve?!!?!?"
Yes. They did come from Adam and Eve. Here we go:
Adam + Eve
|
V
many kids (boys and girls)
|
V
many more kids by those kids.
Wrong. The Bible never mentions that Adam and Eve had more children, it never even insinuates that there is a possibility. If the bible doesn't say it, you can't say it. Period. There is no asumption outside the bible regarding this. The bible is considered by most Christians to be a the leading and only document. You can't just randomly create stories and "facts" to try and prove your points. I copied and pasted the entire damn chapter. Even the direct translation from the Torah! Yet you ignored it. What's that say about your credibility?

You may call me lazy, but everytime I read one of you guys' posts, I know exactly where your weakness is and how to point out your mistake (well, most of the times), but I am really tired of spending hours, typing and typing and typing, just for you to go "blah!" and throw out another statement for me to pick apart.
Stop being such a fucking dumbass and just do it if you can!

If the bible doesn't say it, you can't say it. Period.

Interesting way of thinking.

Very false one too. Do you think God wants us to be like robots, feeding on given data. No!! He wants us to open our eyes and see. He will not going to chew the food for us, He wants us to do some work too. Just think about it, it makes complete sense that Adam and Eve had a lot of children. Partially, because NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that they had only 3 children. Remember, that OT is concerned with tracing the line from Adam to Jesus. It did not, and should not, add more details than it has too, otherwise, it will become huge and unreadable.
I wish I still had St. Augustine's book. He explained it really well. Hmm.. May be I can find it on i-net.
Ok, here we go:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120115.htm
Go to chapter 8. I think it goes to chapter 9, may be further. Enjoy!

It makes complete sense that evolution occurs, too...I don't know your stand on that one, but I'd just like to point that out...

Oh, by all means! I believe the scientists as much as any other guy, but I just find it to support God, rather than disprove Him.
There are many ways for a person to come to God, science is one of them. I heard many people say: "Once I discovered .... and realized .... and learned that .... is actually ....., I understood that God has to exist, it's so obvious to me now."
I am glad for those people. I think that science can help to us "know" God better. Just like any other field: art, music, literature, programming, you name it.

Just think about it, it makes complete sense that Adam and Eve had a lot of children. Partially, because NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that they had only 3 children.
No, you're making up shit. You cannot try and explain inconsistancies in the bible with stuff that you randomly make up and are not supported by the bible. You're statement has neither reason nor evidence to support it. It cannot be used at all. If there is neither reason nor evidence it holds no ground in any debate and it's utter bullshit that you pulled out of your ass.

Remember, that OT is concerned with tracing the line from Adam to Jesus. It did not, and should not, add more details than it has too, otherwise, it will become huge and unreadable.
No. The Old Testament is the Torah which has nothing to do with Jesus. He does not apply when we go that far back. Genesis does not even spend one word trying to explain where Cain's mystical wife came from. Not a single sentence about how the earth became populated. If it doesn't say it, you have no evidence or reason to support your insane assumptions.

And still. Where did black and white people come from? The Bible doesn't help us with that either. Ah, the bible doesn't seem to help us at all with history, so what about the bible can be taken as flat out uninterpreted truth?

Stop, Blib is right about the DNA thing. There isn't enough diversity in the code to create all these people. Most of the time, mutations are bad and the mutant dies. The cases of survival are very very rare. Also, with only 2 people to start, the offspring would only mix and match the same dna around. if that continued, all the dna would eventually be uniform. The reason that doesnt happen today is that there is enough diversity within the population. Not only that, but since we are so populated around the world, enviromental effects also create new diversity.

Genetic recombination can only go so far.