http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apwashington_story.asp?category=1154&slug=Ten%20Commandments%20Scene

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 ·

Commandments debate prompts demonstrations

By SUZANNE GAMBOA
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER


WASHINGTON -- Shouts of "Amen" and a response of "hypocrites" pierced the chill air Wednesday as demonstrators protested in front of the Supreme Court while inside justices considered cases involving displays of the Ten Commandments on government property.

At times, the demonstration of those backing the displays took on the fervor of a prayer meeting, as the group of fewer than 100 sang "Amazing Grace" and recited prayers at the courthouse steps.

Just a few feet away, those on the other side defied the teeth-chattering cold to hold up signs that read "Honor Founding Fathers. Keep Church and Religion Separate" or "No Religious Test For Patriotism."

The group quoted Bible verses they said suggested that the public praying by the other demonstrators was hypocritical.

"I don't want to deny anyone their religious rights, but they already have ample opportunity to express their religious faith, without denying us our right not to," said Tony Hileman, whose group numbered about 30.

The cases before the court centered on whether a 6-foot-tall monument of the Ten Commandments in Texas should be allowed to remain on Capitol grounds and a copy of the Commandments can stay posted in a courthouse in Kentucky.

Monuments carrying the Ten Commandments are common in town squares, courthouses and other government-owned land around the country. Lawyers challenging these displays argue that they violate the First Amendment ban on any law "respecting an establishment of religion."

Christan Stapleton, 13, of Newland, N.C. carried a homemade, cardboard Ten Commandments tablet. She came to the Supreme Court with her church and family members.

"We do need them in our school," she said, "to help us know what to do, what God wants us to do as we go through our day."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's odd.

'Lil Christie can carry a carboard copy of her gawd's rules all the way to Washington, but somehow it never occured to her that she can carry a fucking sheet of notebook paper with those rules printed on them to school with her each day, thus relieving the rest of society from being made to feel as if her particular relgion is one that must be followed by everyone.

Well said Freethinker. I am so sick of the religious zealots attempting to subvert our constituion and turn America into a religious state.

Freedom FROM religioun is as important as freedom OF religion.

Originally posted by Freethinker
"I don't want to deny anyone their religious rights, but they already have ample opportunity to express their religious faith, without denying us our right not to," said Tony Hileman, whose group numbered about 30.


How is this guy not being allowed "not to"?

I agree completely with you FT. My religion is not necessarily the same religion as the guy next door. Thus, his celebration of Christmas, Easter, etc. in decorations on his home are one thing. When it's thrust in State/Federal government, it's almost as if it's threatening you to be a Christian. At the very least, it's lobbying for your belief and inadvertently reflecting the views of the government housed inside.

I am not athiest, let me say, I just have a boatload of questions surrounding Christ and his whole scenario. I believe in the Father...just still trying to figure out the Son part. :confused:

I just don't get the shrill dramatics. The guy in the article fears walking past an inert chunk of marble.

What happens to this guy when he walks past a church? Is he Zelig?

Atheists feel about religious symbols adorning government buildings in a similar manner to how many christians would feel if satan worshipers were allowed to adorn government building with their symbols. We cringe at the idea of church and state intermixing. It is unamerican, unnecesary and unacceptabe.

Think of it this way -- what if it were of the Koran, or Buddhist or athiest religion that adorned a public building / government that you frequented. Would you feel as if it were being thrust at you? That those beliefs were the beliefs of the government / business, etc. housed inside? Or, would you feel angry that they didn't display the Christian symbols that YOU prefer? No religious preference is better than "some" or a "little" of ANY type.

Not trying to be a jerk Brooks, so don't take it that way. Just trying to make a point.

I have no opinion on this issue. My only complaint is how people's hyperbolic and dramatic language (as in the article) makes this seem like a much more serious issue than it actually is. Principal is fun once all your real problems are cleared up, so I just don't get how both sides in this issue think this matters either way.

I heard an interesting compromise today. What if they listed the five commandments that don't deal with God, but are very appropriate at a courthouse? Would that seem religiously coercive?

I heard an interesting compromise today. What if they listed the five commandments that don't deal with God, but are very appropriate at a courthouse? Would that seem religiously coercive? I, myself, don't find this compromise to be offending. But there are those that will complain that the 5 ride the back of the Christian religion. So, no matter what, there will probably always be an argument.

Did you ever think that maybe when these religious fanatics see government endorsing (through presentation) a certain religion that it emboldens them to try and bend the government towards the suppossed values of said religion?

What if it was a dead goat with a pentagram? Or how about some statues extolling the virtue of human sacrifices?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Did you ever think that maybe when these religious fanatics see government endorsing (through presentation) a certain religion that it emboldens them to try and bend the government towards the suppossed values of said religion?


If you want to base this country's decisions on the fear of people taking advantage of the rules and bending them toward a negative, self-serving end you would abolish free speech, put 55 mph governers on all motor vehicles, make alcohol illegal again and require licenses for spray paint.

There are reasons to be against the display of the ten commandments without having to fall back on a slippery slope cliche.

require licenses for spray paint. they already do...

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
What if it was a dead goat with a pentagram?
A "dead goat with a pentagram" isn't someone exercising their freedom of religion, it's animal cruelty (a possible felony) - and punishable by a HUGE fine and or jail time.

Originally posted by Brooks
require licenses for spray paint.
It's a state law in Florida that retailers can't sell spray paint or certain types of glue to minors.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
It's a state law in Florida that retailers can't sell spray paint or certain types of glue to minors.

Well then there's one slippery slope Guerilla no longer has to fear. Now let's get cracking on kids with fast bicycles.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
A "dead goat with a pentagram" isn't someone exercising their freedom of religion, it's animal cruelty (a possible felony) - and punishable by a HUGE fine and or jail time.

I'm guessing a symbol or represettion of a dead goat was being referred, bot the real thing. that might smell kind of gross. :D

Originally posted by The Praetorian
A "dead goat with a pentagram" isn't someone exercising their freedom of religion, it's animal cruelty (a possible felony) - and punishable by a HUGE fine and or jail time.
Gee........whatta shame Lil' Dumbya doesn't insist on the same high-standards from our ALLIES!!!!!! (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10684) :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by Echo2
Freedom FROM religioun is as important as freedom OF religion.


this is just stupid, freedom FROM religion has nothing to do with the first ammendment, you are one stupid dumbass

Originally posted by Echo2
Atheists feel about religious symbols adorning government buildings in a similar manner to how many christians would feel if satan worshipers were allowed to adorn government building with their symbols. We cringe at the idea of church and state intermixing. It is unamerican, unnecesary and unacceptabe.

how do you function in life?

Originally posted by Travh20
how do you function in life?
Ummm, because she is being a true American...she can't function? :@@:

I am sure George Patton would smack you across the face for that remark overdose. calling her a "true American" while brave men fight and die is insulting. she is nothing but a run of the mill hater hiding behind the protections paid for with the blood of American soldiers

Sorry. She is a true American in my book. She served in the military, and she is expressing her right AS an American to have an opinion. She is against religion in our Government, which is what our country was FOUNDED on. She is a true American.

thats your opinion

Originally posted by Travh20
thats your opinion

Yes it is...you have your opinions and other people have theirs. Some people just express them better than others.

I guess all I have to do is trash christians and call conservatives racist hater in every post and then I can match echo in opinion giving

Originally posted by Travh20
I am sure George Patton would smack you across the face for that remark overdose. calling her a "true American" while brave men fight and die is insulting. she is nothing but a run of the mill hater hiding behind the protections paid for with the blood of American soldiers

I guess since you aren't fighting and dying, you aren't a "true american" either.

your right about that vilepagan

And according to you its unamerican to talk shit about soilders...unless of course theyre democrats...

I dont care what party a soldier is in, nor do I care what color they are, they all deserve respect and someone to stand up for them here from scumbags like you while they are away

Originally posted by Travh20
your right about that vilepagan

I don't think so...I can't agree that the only "true americans" are soldiers. I have a friend who's a Quaker...he'll never be a soldier, but that doesn't make him less of an american. There are other ways to fight for what you believe in than picking up a gun, and some of them take as much courage as fighting in a war.

we are allowed to fight for what weer believe in other ways then picking up a gun because there are soldiers to do it for us.

Originally posted by Travh20
we are allowed to fight for what weer believe in other ways then picking up a gun because there are soldiers to do it for us.
So when what someone believes in doesn't happen to coincide with what you believe in, you call them a "run of the mill hater" and claim they're not a "true American"? Trav...I think your hypocrisy is showing.

Originally posted by Travh20
we are allowed to fight for what weer believe in other ways then picking up a gun because there are soldiers to do it for us.

Perhaps. That doesn't mean that soldiers are the only ones who are "true americans" or are the only people worthy of respect.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
So when what someone believes in doesn't happen to coincide with what you believe in, you call them a "run of the mill hater" and claim they're not a "true American"? Trav...I think your hypocrisy is showing.

I guess you have never read and Echo post. I was talking to echo borg, not you, relax.

As the great Jeff LEbowski once said

"we're not talking about the guy who built the railroads, we are talkign about the guy who peed on my rug!"

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Perhaps. That doesn't mean that soldiers are the only ones who are "true americans" or are the only people worthy of respect.

of course not, but they are worthy of respect, and not the kind we see on this board. With friends like these who needs enemies? the people who "support" the troops around here have caled them everything from racists to murderers to morons who cant think for themselves.

I was talking to echo borg, not you, relax. ahh appearently Trav doesnt think people should call others on their hypocritical bullshit. Nor does he think that people should stand up for what they believe regardless of whether or not they are the target of such an attack. Trav your pathetic.

the people who "support" the troops around here have caled them everything from racists to murderers to morons who cant think for themselves.
They are racist because the army has taught them not to view their targets as human and the army gets away with it because they arent white. Like I said I know a black woman who was in the air force for 10 years and shes thinking about quitting because the racism is so rampant. And they are murderers. I dont know how you think you can argue against that but...

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable, if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
-- Doctor Who

I just gave some homeless vet a ride to the YMCA and money to take a shower because the VA hospital kicks you out after 4 days whether or not your leg is completely fucked up. Whose supporting who? Because BushCo is doing a great job at fucking veterans at the moment.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

They are racist because the army has taught them not to view their targets as human and the army gets away with it because they arent white.

You are the only one in the "I don't support the war but I support the troops" crowd to finally admit how they really feel.

We're back to the race card again. How in the hell did this happen on the Church / State / Government thread??

And they are murderers. Murderers? Gimme a break. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Trav you're pathetic.
Like you have any room to talk.

To put it delicately - you're little more than a witless, one-dimensional conglomerate of rhetoric spewing, hippy loving bullshit, and that’s a generous assessment…

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
They are racist because the army has taught them not to view their targets as human and the army gets away with it because they arent white. Like I said I know a black woman who was in the air force for 10 years and shes thinking about quitting because the racism is so rampant. And they are murderers. I dont know how you think you can argue against that but...
There's an old proverb, and goes something like this: Genius does what it must, talent does what it can, and you had best do what you're told. Stop thinking because, clearly, it isn't your strong suit.

You know what I love about people like you? Doesn't matter - get me a large coffee, 2 creams, 2 sugars, and move it - you're hourly.

OUCH! lmao

Wow. Thats great we heard a bunch of name calling bravado and objections to calling soilders murderers but no real arguments against it. You mock when you cannot defend. I challenge any of you to prove that soilders are murderers. You can't and you know it.

Racist...of course not, gook and hajji are terms of endearment right?

Even our allies say so... http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/11/1081621835663.html?from=storyrhs

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I challenge any of you to prove that soilders are murderers. You can't and you know it.
That's your job, asswipe, not ours - and, btw, I wholeheartedly agree with you…you can’t.

You know what I love about people like you? Doesn't matter - get me a large coffee, 2 creams, 2 sugars, and move it - you're hourly. And I piss in everything I make for assholes like you...:D

I dont see how racism in the armed forces is the republican's fault, i was hoping FT could elaborate on that.

and maybe some of these people ARE true americans, but they just dont show it. Hey, if im a cavs fan, and im at a bar after a game and this guy is ripping into Lebron James about how he sucks and cant do anything right, i dont think of him as much of a cavs fan. They do say "never judge a book by its cover"..... but when the cover is really loud and obnoxious, you have to look at it lol.

oops.... sorry not FT, i meant 500..... sorry

I never said the republicans were responsible.

oh... well you sure fooled me.... thanks for clearing that up though

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Wow. Thats great we heard a bunch of name calling bravado and objections to calling soilders murderers but no real arguments against it. You mock when you cannot defend. I challenge any of you to prove that soilders are murderers. You can't and you know it.

Racist...of course not, gook and hajji are terms of endearment right?

Even our allies say so... http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/11/1081621835663.html?from=storyrhs


what authority do you ahve on the subject of soldiers besides movies and counterpunch.com? you really are complelty ignorant of waht goes on. Do not believe everything you hear from your left wing sources guerilla.

and please explain to me how you can accuse soldiers of being murdering racists and say that they are all poor minoritys at the same time. it really is amazing how the hard left wing arguments go. one minute the military are poor minoritys who dont have any other choice but to go die for the rich white mans oil, the next minute they are hardened racist murderers ready to torture and kill anything with brown skin. are you saying all these poor minoritys are racist murderers? that doesnt mesh to well with radical left wing agenda.

Originally posted by Travh20

and please explain to me how you can accuse soldiers of being murdering racists and say that they are all poor minoritys .... who dont have any other choice but to go die for the rich white mans oil,

Nice one

oh... well you sure fooled medidnt take much...maybe you should take off those partisan blinders...

Nice one Not really. The military is just disporportionatly white. Either youre an idiot for ahving no notion of this or a hack for trying to use it as an argument but given your past posts i'd say its a combination of the two (trav). The militray relies on racism to convice soilders to commit murder. Racism is as much a cultural aspect as it is a visual difference. Indoctrinate troops to believe that those they are killing are inhuman by exemplifing cultural differences.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

The militray relies on racism to convice soilders to commit murder. Racism is as much a cultural aspect as it is a visual difference. Indoctrinate troops to believe that those they are killing are inhuman by exemplifing cultural differences.

We fought side by side with the Nisei in WWII, we fought side by side with the South Vietnamese and right now a friend of mine is in Iraq training Iraqi soldiers. I guess he missed the racism class in Officers' School.

Also, can you define "murder"?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
didnt take much...maybe you should take off those partisan blinders...


....... coming from you that doesn't mean much