Foreign concept to me. Man builds a house....calls it God's house, and goes there to speak to him, and hear from him, when in actuality God's house is right outside those church doors, since it's the house He built.

If you truly seek to hear from, see and feel God, from my experience a fast, or as you know it, a vision quest is the closest you can get. The medicine man takes you far off in the middle of the woods, away from everyone else, and leaves you there for 4 days with only matches and an ax. You make your own shelter. You are left with God to seek your answers. You leave with a better knowing.

Church is a place where people come together to pray. It doesn't mean that one can't pray outside. It doesn't mean God "lives" in the church. I some sense I can say that His "presence is stronger" there. Also, the world is not God's house anymore than the church.
4 days in the forest? How about 40 days in the wilderness? That's what Chirst did. No matches, no ax, no food (or only what one can find), no nothing, but praying. Impressive, isn't it?
I think the true way to come to God is through our own mind. Since we, hopefully, have our mind with us at all time, we can come to God in any place and any time. It's called a prayer.

Nice that you both basically agree that god is above caring about location or setting.

It's quite reassuring to know that should I ever convert I can incessently grovel to him every where I go.

A church can be anything. And besides God's church is his followers...not the building. :p

Cree, maybe churches came about for a meeting place out of the weather. I do not believe them necessary though for belief.
Also, a church gives one central place to collect the money.

Just because i think its poetic

The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there -- lift a stone and you will find me.

Homer Simpson: Well, I may not know much about God, but I think we built a pretty good cage for him.

Wow, that's beautiful. What's more interesting is that you are actually right in all your points. We can see God anywhere we look.
Unintentionally (probably) you almost quoted the Bible:
"For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:21

Originally posted by creetwins
Foreign concept to me. Man builds a house....calls it God's house, and goes there to speak to him, and hear from him, when in actuality God's house is right outside those church doors, since it's the house He built.

If you truly seek to hear from, see and feel God, from my experience a fast, or as you know it, a vision quest is the closest you can get. The medicine man takes you far off in the middle of the woods, away from everyone else, and leaves you there for 4 days with only matches and an ax. You make your own shelter. You are left with God to seek your answers. You leave with a better knowing.

Hooooly moley creetwins... leave me in the woods away from everyone else for four days with only matches and an ax and I would be convinced I had gone to hell. I would never make it out. Does someone bring me a nice balanced meal and snacks...

My idea of "camping" involves someone turning down the covers on the king-sized bed and leaving a chocolate on the pillow... I can find God there too... I am more into the heaven version ... :) :D

Originally posted by ~Sal~
... leave me in the woods away from everyone else for four days with only matches and an ax and I would be convinced I had gone to hell. I would never make it out. Does someone bring me a nice balanced meal and snacks...

Sal are you a city person? Your meal would be raw fish and for a snack you could eat a worm or 2.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
a church gives one central place to collect the money.

I would say this is the biggest reason for a church advertisement, money maker, and power giver to whom ever owns the building.

Wow, that's beautiful. What's more interesting is that you are actually right in all your points. We can see God anywhere we look.
Unintentionally (probably) you almost quoted the Bible:
"For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:21
He quoted Stigmata(good movie). It's taken from parts of lines from the Gospel of Thomas. Line 3:
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Line 77:
(77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

The Gospel of Thomas is predicted to be from around the mid double digits AD, a complete text written in Coptic was found at Nag Hammadi.

Well, concerning that gospel I have many doubts. It is not considered canonical, but rather apocryphal. It contains a lot of truth, but the church didn't include it in the Bible for a purpose--too many pitfalls.

yea you can praise where ever you want. its just that one of the things that a christian is supposed to do in life is preach to people. thats why you get those people at your door in the morning. its one of the things you are supposed to do.

Originally posted by Rhojura
yea you can praise where ever you want. its just that one of the things that a christian is supposed to do in life is preach to people. thats why you get those people at your door in the morning. its one of the things you are supposed to do.
If I see any Jehova's Witnesses or whatever at my door one day, I'll politely ask them to leave. Second offense: I'll answer, tell them in no uncertain terms to get the hell off my property, and slam the door in their faces. Third offense: I answer the door naked and offer to take their Bible if they take a copy of the Satanic Bible. I doubt they'd come back again.

They won the right to harrass people in court because it is a religious practice.

We should start a religion that sacrifices christian children as a means of worship. I'll bet that would turn the entire "religious practice" argument on it's heals.

Originally posted by mad dog
Sal are you a city person? Your meal would be raw fish and for a snack you could eat a worm or 2.

Yeah I guess you could say I was a city person but it would probably be more accurate to say I just like my creature comforts... whether I am in the city or country. :p

And the only raw fish that would be vaguely appealing would have to be sushi :D

Damn but I think I am just a hedonist....

4 days in the forest? How about 40 days in the wilderness? That's what Chirst did. No matches, no ax, no food (or only what one can find), no nothing, but praying. Impressive, isn't it?

Sure, but didn't Christ have magical superhuman powers?



I think the true way to come to God is through our own mind. Since we, hopefully, have our mind with us at all time, we can come to God in any place and any time. It's called a prayer.

Yes, i understand this, I pray anywhere too......however, if you notice my original post, it said nothing of coming to God or speaking to him. You can go to church with lots of other people all to pray to God......but how often are you getting feedback from him there? I believe I said "If you truly seek to hear from, see and feel God". I don't believe this is possible unless you are absolutely isolated from everyone, (then you are sure who he is talking to) and in a purified state of prolonged fasting. No food, no worms no bugs, no water during daytime. We are talking about different things.

creetwins

Yes, i understand this, I pray anywhere too......however, if you notice my original post, it said nothing of coming to God or speaking to him. You can go to church with lots of other people all to pray to God......but how often are you getting feedback from him there? I believe I said "If you truly seek to hear from, see and feel God". I don't believe this is possible unless you are absolutely isolated from everyone, (then you are sure who he is talking to) and in a purified state of prolonged fasting. No food, no worms no bugs, no water during daytime. We are talking about different things.

Actually I too believe you must be isolated. But you can isolate yourself in the middle of cacophony. One only needs to go into the quiet of self.

As for the purified state of prolonged fasting; no food, no bugs, no water etc. I understand that as tradition and deeply respect your ability to do so. I personally couldn't physically endure that.

I do however think there is huge merit in removing oneself from the whole physical body experience if you can. Sort of a separation of awareness and physicality. What is the reasoning behind it? I would be interested in hearing from someone like you that actually knows.

Cree, all I know is that when I go out into the forest and sit down among the pines, birds, etc., and listen to the wind blow through the trees, that I seem much closer with all that is. I experience a peace and tranquility that I cannot feel around others. I seem to be much closer to my Indian blood than at any other time. It must have been great when the forests and prairies were free to roam many years ago.

creetwins:
Sure, but didn't Christ have magical superhuman powers?
Sure He did, but He didn't use them. Satan tempted Him to turn stones into bread, but Christ said: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Also, He was fasting, meaning He would not had eaten, even if He could.
but how often are you getting feedback from him there? I believe I said "If you truly seek to hear from, see and feel God". I don't believe this is possible unless you are absolutely isolated from everyone, (then you are sure who he is talking to) and in a purified state of prolonged fasting. No food, no worms no bugs, no water during daytime. We are talking about different things.
When God will speak to you, you will know. It's that simple. Also, from my and my friends' personal experience, God speaks to the heart, not in words, but it's like the words are already there. Hard to explain. You also know that those are not your words and not your thoughts, but His.
Also, meditation is good, but is not necessary. Fasting is also good, but again, is not required.

Why is Fasting good?

Because Jesus practiced it and so did many saints. It's a good way to keep your stomach under control. If done right, it's healthy. But again, it is now required.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Because Jesus practiced it and so did many saints. It's a good way to keep your stomach under control. If done right, it's healthy. But again, it is now required.
I thought Christians don't really care about the Earthly body, because you get a shiny new one in heaven...

Hehe. You are funny. We don't really care about it, but we need it to do our work here, on earth. Also, fasting is a spiritual thing too. And also, it is service to God. And also, the church recommends it. And, as I said before, Christ did it and many saints after Him.

Fasting for spiritual purposes happened long before Christ.

The ceremonies and teachings that we practice predate Christ.

Indulgance distracts you from the Creator's messengers. That''s not to say you can't recive signs and guidance any other time.

Long before Christ??? Are you aware that "He was with His Father before the world?"
Aside from that, there are plenty example of fasting in OT.