Do animals have soul?

What is soul?
Depending on the answer, they will have one or not, but I am sure it's not the same as humans'.

My Golden has "soul"! If I'm dancing around the TV room listening to loud music, she'll jump up and start dancing with me! (She has to work on her lead though). :) She's no James Brown, but she's got soul.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
What is soul?
Depending on the answer, they will have one or not, but I am sure it's not the same as humans'.

Hmmmm well I guess "the essence or core of a being which lives on after the physical body dies"

Originally posted by saycricket
My Golden has "soul"! If I'm dancing around the TV room listening to loud music, she'll jump up and start dancing with me! (She has to work on her lead though). :) She's no James Brown, but she's got soul.


aawww... that is cute...

I think all living creatures have "soul". I have to agree, though, that it is probably different from humans. My dog, for instance, has a distinct personality different from other dogs in her species. To me, having a soul means that your "being", the essence that makes you "you", lives on after your body dies. I believe that all living/breathing creatures have soul. It just makes sense. But fish? I just dunno... :confused:

The way you defined it, Sal, my answer has to be no. Animals die and that's it. Sucks for them.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
The way you defined it, Sal, my answer has to be no. Animals die and that's it. Sucks for them.

you mean there's no Doggie Heaven? *sobs uncontrollably*

Yes, that's what I mean. The cartoon lied to you.

but what if the cartoon is the truth and its really YOU who's lying to me? 'cause i know cartoons never lie...

Of course they do. The same mysterious essense that give us life and feeling, gives them life and feeling too. Without a doubt in my mind. And they can emote their feelings right at us, and if you are able, to pay attention, it is very clear to see.

Hail the Gaia concept, All living life finds the same fate after death.

the essence or core of a being which lives on after the physical body dies
The problem with definitions like this is they are negative. You have said what a soul is not but not what it is.

Imagine that (somehow) you did not know what a physical body is and I defined it as:
"that which dies and is non-essential to the being when the soul lives on"

Not very enlightening!

I would be better to say something like "a physical body is made up of carbon-based complex molecules and consists of a heart to pump blood, a brain to control the system..... " and so on. I would perhaps also provide a diagram or model.

Ask any reasonable doctor about the physical body and you will hear something more similar to my second description than my first. Ask any theist about the soul and you will get vague and incoherent, negatively-framed descriptions. This is simply because the body undeniably exists and can be agreed upon, unlike the soul.

So (finally!) no, animals do not have souls. And that includes my personal very favourite animal - homo sapiens.

Blob:
You have said what a soul is not but not what it is.
That and the first part of your post doesn't make any sense. I think you mis-read something.

Creetwins, life and feelings don't constitute for an existence of a soul. There is more that is needed.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Blob:

That and the first part of your post doesn't make any sense. I think you mis-read something.

Creetwins, life and feelings don't constitute for an existence of a soul. There is more that is needed.

And you have evidence to explain this how? O shit thats right you dont, its just you forcing your will upon others again, gosh darn.

Originally posted by saycricket
I think all living creatures have "soul". I have to agree, though, that it is probably different from humans. My dog, for instance, has a distinct personality different from other dogs in her species. To me, having a soul means that your "being", the essence that makes you "you", lives on after your body dies. I believe that all living/breathing creatures have soul. It just makes sense. But fish? I just dunno... :confused:

Fish...interesting because I too think certain animals have a soul and yet where does it end?

When I was a kid my mum would remove any bugs from the house except for mosquito's and flies. I stomped on anything that moved and thought she was being ridiculous. The apple does not fall far from the tree since now I would never kill anything in the house save for mosquito's and flies. Everything else gets put outside.

But I don't believe insects have a soul. How far up the chain does one have to be? I am not sure.

Originally posted by sputnik
but what if the cartoon is the truth and its really YOU who's lying to me? 'cause i know cartoons never lie...

cartoons never lie...he is just trying to upset you....<hands you a kleenex>

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Hail the Gaia concept, All living life finds the same fate after death.

And that fate is???? I am never quite sure if you think there is an afterlife or not. Is there?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Hmmmm well I guess "the essence or core of a being which lives on after the physical body dies"

Then Blob said:

The problem with definitions like this is they are negative. You have said what a soul is not but not what it is.

Actually I did not state what a soul was "not" I quite clearly stated what it was

It may not be enlightening to you but it was definitely a definition by me about "soul" albeit a limited one.

Blob said:
Imagine that (somehow) you did not know what a physical body is and I defined it as: "that which dies and is non-essential to the being when the soul lives on"

Not very enlightening!

To me it is actually quite enlightening as it states for me what you believe a physical body is. I could then ask you what it is composed of. Then you could tell me what it is made from.

The body does undeniably exist unless you begin to speak to philosophers and then it would not be quite so clear as you would like to think. But that is another topic.

And yes soul is merely a belief. I can't prove it and you can't disprove it. But I do like how for you each animal is equal in it's lack there of... consistancy is a good thing. :)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
The way you defined it, Sal, my answer has to be no. Animals die and that's it. Sucks for them.

Why?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Do animals have soul?

You and I are animals so is the cow horse dog cat and so on. Why should humans be put above another living creature? I do believe every living thing has a soul. Druids believed that we evolve, lets say we start as a mouse then die we come back as a dog then a dolphin and on and on, until we are able to reach the highest of inteligents. I'm not sure if this does happen but it is another thought on life after death.

Blib brings up an interesting post about us just being pieces of meat but what gives us our personality? Take twins they look the same and are made of pretty much the same thing a brain, heart etc... but they can think very different. The energy that is their soul is seperate that is what would make all of us different. Compare us to a car we are all VW same make same year no one would be different if it weren't for the energy of the soul.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Do animals have soul?

everything has one.
christians and some others have a habit of claiming certain things, or even races have none to justify treating them badly.

Creetwins, life and feelings don't constitute for an existence of a soul. There is more that is needed.

Holy geez! You know the secret components that make up a soul? Care to disclose them? lol

Seriously......our teachings and beliefs tell us that every living thing has a spirit. Life IS soul. IF the colonists had tried to adopt some of our spiritual teachings instead of trying to eradicate them, our ecology might not be in such dire straights. Placing yourself as a human above all the other occupants of the earth is a dangerous attitude, and it is evident in the destruction and disrespect of the natural world. Christianity has done it's best to destroy and suppress the animal nature of humans, and the connection to the earth has been lost.

Man's fatal flaw is his ego.

Very well said Creetwins

There is no such thing as a soul. It is a made up concept by religious people in an attempt to explain what they consider to be the part of them that lives on after they die.

Consider this, if a soul doesn't die with the body, then where was it before the body existed?

Every human being that ever lived would have a soul floating around somewhere? That's a hell of a lot of souls.

What would all these "souls" be doing for eternity. They have no body so they can't actually [b]DO[/b[ anything.

The essence that makes us who we are is made up of dreams and hopes and achievments and failures. Relationships with other living beings and every interaction we have ever had. Our souls would be devoid of dreams and hopes because we are no longer alive and looking forward to life and growth. Our souls would have no failures or achievments because their are no challenges without life. Our relationships would be bland and empty because their would be no growth of ourselfs or growth of others.

Remember heaven is depicted as being a place where everything is wonderfull and their are no chalenges because there is no posibility of failure. We have no body to stretch and use, we have no disapointment or failure. Nothing but pure existance without growth, without challange, our only purpose is to continue worshiping the god that put us in that empty, lifeless, unchallenging place.

Think about it. The whole concept is rediculous.

The level of awareness could be the separation.
That which is aware may be the soul.
Awareness may continue after death.

So we get to spend eternity aware that we have no body, can do nothing and are never challenged.

That just makes me want to turn evangelistic so much! I can hardly wait.

Originally posted by creetwins
Holy geez! You know the secret components that make up a soul? Care to disclose them? lol

Seriously......our teachings and beliefs tell us that every living thing has a spirit. Life IS soul. IF the colonists had tried to adopt some of our spiritual teachings instead of trying to eradicate them, our ecology might not be in such dire straights. Placing yourself as a human above all the other occupants of the earth is a dangerous attitude, and it is evident in the destruction and disrespect of the natural world. Christianity has done it's best to destroy and suppress the animal nature of humans, and the connection to the earth has been lost.

Man's fatal flaw is his ego.

Life IS soul... I like that. It does seem as though we have lost our "roots" (so to speak) :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2
[B]So we get to spend eternity aware that we have no body, can do nothing and are never challenged.
------------------------------------------------
Untethered awareness can accomplish anything it can conceive.

Echo 2 said:

Consider this, if a soul doesn't die with the body, then where was it before the body existed?

Every human being that ever lived would have a soul floating around somewhere? That's a hell of a lot of souls.

What would all these "souls" be doing for eternity. They have no body so they can't actually [b]DO[/b[ anything.





If the soul doesn't die with the body, it may have come into existence when the body did OR it may have existed before in another body.

If humans do repeat journeys there may not be as many souls as it seems.

For eternity perhaps we evolve until we return to the Source.

Originally posted by Echo2
So we get to spend eternity aware that we have no body, can do nothing and are never challenged.

That just makes me want to turn evangelistic so much! I can hardly wait.

Why does having no body mean we can do nothing and never be challenged?

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Why does having no body mean we can do nothing and never be challenged?
--------------------------------------

I do not believe it would. Compare a dream, it seems real.

Sal
The body does undeniably exist unless you begin to speak to philosophers and then it would not be quite so clear as you would like to think.
You are probably refering to nihilists and others who claim life is a dream etc. And you have a point. But do you see the depth you have to go to deny the physical body? Why, you have to deny that reality exists!

Now I know that you are not nihilistic Sal, and you were just making a figurative point. But how much easier it is to deny a soul than a body.

Echo2
So we get to spend eternity aware that we have no body, can do nothing and are never challenged.
Also, if we survive beyond our bodies yet still have memories and thoughts then one wonders WTF a brain is for.

Maybe our pyhsical bodies are the key to our spiritual awareness. The life force that came into existance when I did, was not part of my awareness before that point. Perhaps the same when I die.....yet the energy that is the life force cannot be created or destroyed.....it comes from everything returns to everything.......consider it a collective awareness. You are not your self before you are born and after you die.....only in your physical being are you an individual......after that the individual no longer matters.

Originally posted by creetwins
Maybe our pyhsical bodies are the key to our spiritual awareness. The life force that came into existance when I did, was not part of my awareness before that point. Perhaps the same when I die.....yet the energy that is the life force cannot be created or destroyed.....it comes from everything returns to everything.......consider it a collective awareness. You are not your self before you are born and after you die.....only in your physical being are you an individual......after that the individual no longer matters.

I agree. I doubt we are going to "wake up" in Heaven/Hell fully formed as we were in life touching ourselves (not like that!) saying "holy shit I made it/didn't make it. Where's the bathroom?"

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2
[B]So we get to spend eternity aware that we have no body, can do nothing and are never challenged.
------------------------------------------------
Untethered awareness can accomplish anything it can conceive.

But what good is an accomplishment if everything is accomplished. As far as I have been told, there is no sadness, no failure, no bad things in heaven. So accomplishing something would not be an effort or an acheivement. It would be what always happens.

For that matter, if everything is given/easy, there really would be no accomplishments.

Originally posted by creetwins
Maybe our pyhsical bodies are the key to our spiritual awareness. The life force that came into existance when I did, was not part of my awareness before that point. Perhaps the same when I die.....yet the energy that is the life force cannot be created or destroyed.....it comes from everything returns to everything.......consider it a collective awareness. You are not your self before you are born and after you die.....only in your physical being are you an individual......after that the individual no longer matters.

Our energy will transfer that is unstoppable, and it will become part of the earth. The Gaia concept in my view speaks of this.

Sorry I haven't posted here in a while. I am sure you all missed me. :) Well, here I go:

Sal:
Fish...interesting because I too think certain animals have a soul and yet where does it end?
Good point. Also, we need to remember that God created animals FOR the man, to use as he pleases. (Note: Sal, I sent you a private message)
Also, I don't believe that the animals have an after life. There might be some in heaven (like the many-eyed beasts), but they are not from earth.

Mad dog:
Why should humans be put above another living creature?
Because God created us separately and gave us free will and authority.
I do believe every living thing has a soul.
Again, that depends on your personal definition of a soul. Also, I don't buy into that reincarnation stuff. If you want to argue with me on that, make another thread.

ivan:
christians and some others have a habit of claiming certain things, or even races have none to justify treating them badly
During the slavery in America, southern priests said a lot of s***. I am sorry to say it like that, but that's the only way to make my point clear. They were hypocrites, nothing more.

creetwins:
Holy geez! You know the secret components that make up a soul? Care to disclose them? lol
No, I don't. I just don't think it is as simple as you said it is. But from your definition "life is soul", I have to agree that animals have souls--they are alive, after-all.
Christianity has done it's best to destroy and suppress the animal nature of humans,
Say what? Can I please have an example?
Man's fatal flaw is his ego
Perfect. That is why Christians (the true ones) put God first, then neighbors, and then themselves. Also, in case you didn't notice, my alias has S.T.O. capitalized. That stands for (Serve To Others)

Echo2:
Consider this, if a soul doesn't die with the body, then where was it before the body existed?

That's simple. It wasn't anywhere.
The essence that makes us who we are is made up of dreams and hopes and achievments and failures. Relationships with other living beings and every interaction we have ever had.
I am sorry to say that, but without a soul...you are a collection of well organized atoms. What is a dream? Operationally define it for me.
Remember heaven is depicted as being a place where everything is wonderfull and their are no chalenges because there is no posibility of failure. We have no body to stretch and use, we have no disapointment or failure. Nothing but pure existance without growth, without challange, our only purpose is to continue worshiping the god that put us in that empty, lifeless, unchallenging place.
We do have a body. You are just demonstrating a lack of knowledge of Christian faith. We will have a body and it will be perfect. Also, heaven is not empty (there are we and God), not lifeless (God is life), and more on unchallenging later.

Dan Fussell:
Untethered awareness can accomplish anything it can conceive.
Let's see it.

Blob:
Also, if we survive beyond our bodies yet still have memories and thoughts then one wonders WTF a brain is for.
Brains is for here and now, while we are bound to this earth. The new body will be the same essentially, but perfect.

creetwins:
yet the energy that is the life force cannot be created or destroyed
Not if you believe in God.
it comes from everything returns to everything
That's like buttery butter. Everything to everything? What put it into motion? When will it end?
consider it a collective awareness
Called God.

Ed Blank:
I agree. I doubt we are going to "wake up" in Heaven/Hell fully formed as we were in life touching ourselves (not like that!) saying "holy shit I made it/didn't make it. Where's the bathroom
Well, there will be Judgment Day first. (not that day is not 24 hours, but a period) Then we will go to where we were sent. Our bodies will need no food, so therefore no waste. Our bodies, as I said before, will be perfect. You would still be able to touch and taste and even eat (though, why would you?)

Echo2:
But what good is an accomplishment if everything is accomplished. As far as I have been told, there is no sadness, no failure, no bad things in heaven. So accomplishing something would not be an effort or an acheivement. It would be what always happens.
Right, no sadness, no failure, no bad things. It's a rest. Think of a time you worked really hard and long on something. Then you probably took a long rest. This is what God did (7th day of creation) and this is what He will give us--rest. We (Christians) are laboring on this earth to bring fruits, we work. God will give us rest as our reward. Eternal rest of peace. Like, sometimes you dose off and it seems only seconds passed, when in fact it was an hour or so. This is kind of like heaven. There is no time, there is nothing to do, because you are with God, you have accomplished everything. There is no need to do anything more. If you don't like this, there is always a choice--the other place.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Say what? Can I please have an example? (of Christianity suppressing animal nature)
A primary example would be the forbiddance of premarital sex and homosexual sex. Masturbation, too. All these things are natural and are part of our mammalian nature. Christianity has, in part, attempted to repress these.

STOp

quote: Blob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, if we survive beyond our bodies yet still have memories and thoughts then one wonders WTF a brain is for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Brains is for here and now, while we are bound to this earth. The new body will be the same essentially, but perfect.
That just reiterates the question STOp, it does nothing to answer it.


DAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ~Sal~
Why does having no body mean we can do nothing and never be challenged?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not believe it would. Compare a dream, it seems real.
Dreams take place in a physical brain and are no indication of how it might be to be bodyless.


I have to say I find this theistic (and mystic) dismissiveness and disregard for the wonders of human anatomy, including the incredible marvels of the human brain, to be a very negative viewpoint. It smacks of self-discontent and personal dissastisfaction.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Mad dog:

Because God created us separately and gave us free will and authority.


can you show me the 100% proof of this, sorry but the Bible {mans word} won't work? Also if God made us so important then why did he create animals 1st? Was this a trial run? start with something.... ooops screwed up try again? This is the part that makes me disbelieve in Christianity, they think they have all the answers when in fact they have no more then the next guy. Who is to say we won't be pushed to the side just like dino's, monkey men etc... Some day there may be a creature that will look back at us and say "wow those beings where really stupid", God created them seperate just like you believe about animals.

Why are Humans so great? take a look around all we do is destroy, just look at what we are doing to the verything that gives us life{earth}. If this is the best God can do then woo boy does God need to get to work.

Consider your automobile.
The engine and various components, make up the car. An electronic brain keeps all the equipment operating to perform the expected functions.
The driver is completely separate and in no way a part of the car.
The driver is along for the ride and experience.
The car can become disabled and useless(dead?) and the driver moves on.
Yet if a person living a thousand years ago, in an ignorance of cars, had seen an automobile being driven he might have thought it mystic or theistic. He might think the driver a part of the car or vice versa. Next, when he tells others what he saw, he might be called nuts and shunned by disbelievers. Give me proof they say. Well it comes and goes he says, I have no proof to show you. Ah ha they say, see it is a figmant of your imagination.
He shakes his head, walking away, amazed at the small mindedness of the nonbelievers. Yet, understanding the logic behind their thinking. It is hard to believe what one has not personally experienced.

Originally posted by mad dog
.

Why are Humans so great? take a look around all we do is destroy, just look at what we are doing to the verything that gives us life{earth}. If this is the best God can do then woo boy does God need to get to work.

LOL...if God wanted to create perfect beings....he would have perfect beings.....

BorgHunter:
A primary example would be the forbiddance of premarital sex and homosexual sex. Masturbation, too. All these things are natural and are part of our mammalian nature. Christianity has, in part, attempted to repress these
Well, I suppose animals don't marry. But what kind of animals are homos? I don't know of any. And what animals masturbate? Also, mammalian nature, unlike ours, is only to survive and reproduce. I thank God we have come this far.

Blob:
That just reiterates the question STOp, it does nothing to answer it.
Ok. We don't "need" the brain, but it is there to keep the body in contact with the soul. I think of a brain as soul's messages receptor.
I have to say I find this theistic (and mystic) dismissiveness and disregard for the wonders of human anatomy, including the incredible marvels of the human brain, to be a very negative viewpoint. It smacks of self-discontent and personal dissastisfaction
Wait, what? Are you saying theists are not amazed by our wonderful bodies? Sure we are. Please clarify your statement.

mad dog:
can you show me the 100% proof of this, sorry but the Bible {mans word} won't work?
I said many times that I can't prove many things. This is one of them.
Also if God made us so important then why did he create animals 1st? Was this a trial run? start with something.... ooops screwed up try again?
Wow, that is silly. First of all, God knew everything before He even attempted to do anything. He could not screw up. Why animals first? Because it would make sense for humans to come last. At least, it does to me.
Who is to say we won't be pushed to the side just like dino's, monkey men etc...
Well, the Bible speaks nothing of the more supreme beings that will replace us. We were created last and after us there was nothing. Also, God promised us Heaven and "the earth and the heaven will pass away, but His word will by no means pass away." His promise is eternal.
Why are Humans so great? take a look around all we do is destroy, just look at what we are doing to the verything that gives us life{earth}. If this is the best God can do then woo boy does God need to get to work.
As Decka correctly pointed out, God doesn't want perfect beings. He is happy to accept us as we are, if we come to Him and submit ourselves before Him. Also, earth was created for humans. God created it for us to use. Sure we messed it up, but I think this is the least thing He is upset about.

Dan Fussell, yes an excellent example of what "might be," but like any of us you can't prove it. If you are trying to say that theists just don't know enough and that is why they accept God, then I feel sorry for you, but I cannot disprove you in any way.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
But what kind of animals are homos?
Bonobo apes, birds, lizards, sheep, hyena, and bottlenose dolphins all show homosexual behavior in nature. Also, there was a rather famous experiment recently in which some scientists managed to genetically engineer fruit flies who were exclusively gay at a certain temperature range.

This article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals) may interest you.
And what animals masturbate?
Other primates.
Also, mammalian nature, unlike ours, is only to survive and reproduce.
Actually, our two greatest instincts are survival and reproduction. Because we, after all, are just mammals with bigger brains.

Well, the site won't open, but I trust that there is some evidence. (i'll look at it later) What can I say? You really got me there with those animals. Let's all praise and thank God that He was kind enough to give us free will to abstain from such wickedness.
Actually, our two greatest instincts are survival and reproduction. Because we, after all, are just mammals with bigger brain
And free will, which let's us "block" the two instincts, although sometimes they get hold of all of us.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Let's all praise and thank God that He was kind enough to give us free will to abstain from such wickedness.
On whose moral authority can you declare that homosexuality is "wicked", especially if animals (which have instincts given to them by, you say, God) can be homosexual?

[i]Originally posted by STOpandthink [/
Dan Fussell, yes an excellent example of what "might be," but like any of us you can't prove it. If you are trying to say that theists just don't know enough and that is why they accept God, then I feel sorry for you, but I cannot disprove you in any way. [/B]
-------------------
No, this is not what I am saying.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Wait, what? Are you saying theists are not amazed by our wonderful bodies? Sure we are. Please clarify your statement.


To clarify: I am not saying theists (let's forget mystics) are consciously unamazed by the brain. But in practice they imply it all the time.

How can you agree that the brain gives rise to consciousness, thought, perception, dreams, emotion and so on whenyou claim a soul carries on these processes independently of the brain? It would seem the brain impresses you so little that you must invent some intangible 'essence' ('soul') to feel special. You yourself have just described the brain as a receptor - reducing it to a glorified antenna.

This physical life, I am implored to believe, is only a drop in the ocean compared to the eternity I will just be a soul. How can a theist truly cherish physical life and his body when it is a fleeting moment of relative discomfort before eternal ecstasy? But for the atheist the physical life and body are all we have and are therefore to be marvelled at and appreciated to the full.

Finally I really don't understand how the wonders of the brain don't stop you all dead in your tracks. Why are you all not stunned into amazement by it like me! You wonder at consciousness, emotion and so on and so on yet never connect this with the incredible, powerful organ that sits right behind your eyes - situated PRECISELY where all these wonderful, profound feelings of being-one's-self occur! As you read this very sentence do you not feel as though you are doing so from inside your own head?

Respect the brain and stop inventing ill-defined ghosts in the biological machine!

lol. Just call me the preaching atheist.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
mad dog:

Well, the Bible speaks nothing of the more supreme beings that will replace us.

isn't it funny there are alot of things the Bible doesn't speak of???

We were created last and after us there was nothing.

hmmmmmmmmmm very interesting, and you know this how? is there life on other planets? what are the true roots of mankind? what killed of the dino's? what happened to the neanderthal? What happened to the giant slooth, saber tooth, beaver and mammoth?


As Decka correctly pointed out, God doesn't want perfect beings. He is happy to accept us as we are, if we come to Him and submit ourselves before Him.

I think the problem with this is that people want God to be their personal baby sitter.

Also, earth was created for humans. God created it for us to use. Sure we messed it up, but I think this is the least thing He is upset about.

Yeh, that makes alot of sense God created the earth for humans, but we have only been here for a speck of time :confused: Sorry but I strongly disagree with the concept of our{humans} sh** don't stink. We are just another form of life going through the motions just like the dinos and other creatures that have moved on{disapeared}. Of course maybe your right God needed us to have 4 McDs on every corner I quess he needs fries with his big mac :D :D Like I said before if we are the last and best then ole God needs to go back to the drawing board :)

Blob, I also are amazed by the capabilities of the human brain.
What suprises me is that you would limit it's abilities to the 5 senses.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
BorgHunter:

Well, I suppose animals don't marry. But what kind of animals are homos? I don't know of any. And what animals masturbate? Also, mammalian nature, unlike ours, is only to survive and reproduce. I thank God we have come this far.


You truly are ignorant of the world around you. Just about every animal species has a percentage that displays and acts upon homosexuality. From penguins to cats to dogs to birds. Do a little reserch before you make such rediculous statements.

Homosexual penguins: http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2005/02/18/6

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Blob, I also are amazed by the capabilities of the human brain.

I'm sure. But that fails to address my comments about the brain serving no purpose if you believe that thoughts etc can occur independently of a physical body.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
What suprises me is that you would limit it's abilities to the 5 senses.
That's easy.

I simply ignore the current fashion for new-agism.

The day a single shred of evidence comes in, rather than mere testimonials, is the day I'll take it seriously. If you have any such evidence please feel free to beam it directly to my third eye.

BTW I was wondering why you mystics use the mundane old sense of conventional sight to communicate with one another over the net. Why not use your 6th sense to chat to one another directly via the spiritual plane, thereby minimising the chances of closed-minded fools like me butting in with our sceptical viewpoints?

*braces self for smug, quasi-philosophical comment about those who do not understand always mocking the enlightened*

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob
The day a single shred of evidence comes in, rather than mere testimonials, is the day I'll take it seriously. If you have any such evidence please feel free to beam it directly to my third eye.
----------------------------------------------------------
O.K.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob
The day a single shred of evidence comes in, rather than mere testimonials, is the day I'll take it seriously. If you have any such evidence please feel free to beam it directly to my third eye.
----------------------------------------------------------
O.K.

:D

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
The level of awareness could be the separation.
That which is aware may be the soul.
Awareness may continue after death.

Yeah I like that definition and also the car analogy was a good one.

Good point. Also, we need to remember that God created animals FOR the man, to use as he pleases.

This epitomises the attitudes that frighten me.



Say what? Can I please have an example?

Inducing shame of our sexual behaviors and our bodies. Especially women. Was Delilah really the whore she was depicted as? Or Or mary magdelene? The seductive nature of women has been suppressed and feared. Always blame the sexual wiles of a woman for a man's downfall. Why burn all those women as witches? They had a close connection with nature, or lived alone, or used plants for healing.

Coming here and calling my ancestors dirty savages, and trying to sever their connection to the land.

Or mary magdelene?
According to the Bible she was.
During that time a woman was supposed to be a quite servant, no questions/comments/and so on. But that didn't prevent her from being healed by Christ and following Him even to His death.
Why burn all those women as witches? They had a close connection with nature, or lived alone, or used plants for healing.
You are referring to Salem witch trials, right? That was an awful period and Puritans (with whom I disagree on many points) were not tolerant of unusual behavior.
Coming here and calling my ancestors dirty savages, and trying to sever their connection to the land.
Not you are referring to English settlers (you keep switching topics on me) who came to America and, as I take it, you are American-Indian, right? That was just horrible, too. Especially that they claimed to be Christians. A good book for that is Past Watch by O. Card.

Also, concerning all previous posts about homosexuality:
Frankly, I don't care if animals do it, they didn't receive the law from God, but man sure did. The Bible law says that homosexuality is wrong and wicked. For me that is the end of story.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Also, concerning all previous posts about homosexuality:
Frankly, I don't care if animals do it, they didn't receive the law from God, but man sure did. The Bible law says that homosexuality is wrong and wicked. For me that is the end of story.
What makes homosexuality so much more wrong than, say, coveting your neighbor's possessions? Everyone does that all the time. Hence expressions like "Keeping up with the Jonses". In fact, capitalism is based on the fact that people want things...

And if homosexuality is so wrong, why does God make some people attracted to the same sex?

And finally, why do you care if other people are homosexual? You're not the one who has to burn in Hell...

And if homosexuality is so wrong, why does God make some people attracted to the same sex?

God doesn't make them. They choose to. If for some reason they have a strong desire for it, they should keep it to themselves.
All sins are bad: coveting and homosexuality alike. And like Jesus said: even thinking of it is a sin. We all sin, but some sins are more wicked than others.

I am not going to hell, but they might. They are my brothers, after all, and I want them to be with me in Heaven. I am just a nice guy. ;)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
God doesn't make them. They choose to.
UNTRUE. Goddamn. EVERY mental health professional ON EARTH who is educated in the subject will tell you that homosexuality is an unchosen inclination that you CANNOT change. Can YOU change who you're attracted to on a whim?
I am just a nice guy. ;)
Calling people "wicked" and "sinners" is not my definition of "nice".

Can YOU change who you're attracted to on a whim?
Not on a whim. It would take work, which I think God reasonably expects of those people. Also, I realize that probably they can't help but be attracted to the same sex. That is no excuse to actually go on and do it.

Calling people "wicked" and "sinners" is not my definition of "nice".
Exactly. I try to draw my definitions of nice/mean, good/bad, from the only reliable standard I know of--God. You are just basing your judgments on your own opinion.
Also, I am being truthful here. They do feet the definition of sinner and wicked man, as shown in the Bible.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Not on a whim. It would take work, which I think God reasonably expects of those people. Also, I realize that probably they can't help but be attracted to the same sex. That is no excuse to actually go on and do it.


Exactly. I try to draw my definitions of nice/mean, good/bad, from the only reliable standard I know of--God. You are just basing your judgments on your own opinion.
Also, I am being truthful here. They do feet the definition of sinner and wicked man, as shown in the Bible.

If this reborn Jesus came down and said "God wants you all to be Gay to get into Heaven", and bare in mind he changed his tune pretty dramatically from the OT to the NT so it wouldnt surprise me if he changed it again.

Would you be able to become gay? Force yourself to have sex with a guy? Just to be with God?

Do you have any Gay freinds? No most likely you dont you ignorant fundie.

StopandThink every single time i read one of your posts it makes me more assured in my rejection of God.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk

StopandThink every single time i read one of your posts it makes me more assured in my rejection of God.

I agree.

I'm glad to hear that someone besides me feels that way about the attitudes and ideology of a person like STOpandThink.

(btw....does the STO really stand for *Sappy Tautological Opining*?...or is that just a rumor??)

Reading his narrow bigoted pronouncements, i am often moved to think---"If THAT is the sort of person Heaven will be populated with, then how could it be a happy place?"

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[BStopandThink every single time i read one of your posts it makes me more assured in my rejection of God. [/B]

"To shake the existence of God, we need only to ask a theologian to speak of him. As soon as he has said a word upon the subject, the least reflection will convince us, that his observations are totally incompatible with the essence he ascribes to his God."

Baron D'Holbach - 1772

Bigotry disguised as religion is the most disgusting of all. The more I hear people like you spout their hatred the more I am convinced that the christian religion is evil.

To hate in the name of gawd is what the KKK and the Nazi's did.

You and your faith are dispicable and only serve to show us the worst that mankind can be.

Don't even bother to deny your hatred. It is evident in your words and attitudes.

What?! Hatred? For what? I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. How is it evident?

Loki, Christ wouldn't ask anybody to do that, so I am not going to bother with that questions. In fact, I think most "what if" questions are pointless.

I am upset to hear that you are turning more towards the darkness with each of my attempts to lead you to light. Unfortunately, there is little I can do.

Originally posted by STOpandthink

I am upset to hear that you are turning more towards the darkness with each of my attempts to lead you to light. Unfortunately, there is little I can do.

When you stop trying to "lead us to the light" and accept that "we dont want the light" then we can progress with this.

Just as much as i need to understand the reasons for your choice, you need to understand mine.

We need to meet in the middle, Agree to Disagree, and then logically look at the varying aspects of both.

I am a Man of Facts, You are a Man of Faith.

Interestingly what Good Works have you done, or are working towards doing?

To be honest, I have not done much in my life. I am still learning about Christianity, still reading the Bible, still growing. That is no excuse to not do good things, of course. I think I can say that I am a good person, but I can't show a super good thing that I did. Well, except believed in Christ.
And as much as it pains me, I will accept your desire for darkness. Let's see where this will take us.

According to my beliefs, everything in the universe has a soul, and intangible essence. Anthros call it "anima", I think. I believe that animals have souls that are comparable to humans. I don't think anyone can look into the eyes of a dog, cat, or horse, and not see it. It's the same with all animals.

Stopandthink,

Here's the problem I see with your stated oppinion, with regards to the subject at hand.

While I wouldn't dream of interfering with your right to believe whatever it is you wish, I find your expectation that all should adhere to your interpretation only, very disturbing.

I do not believe that God, in His/Her/It's infinite wisdom would give man dominion over the earth and it's creatures. It makes more sense that we might be given stewardship over the earth, but not dominion. Dominion belongs to whomever created it.

As to different religious faiths, isn't it wonderful that the Creator provides for all people in their own circumstances??

I do find it amusing, in a strange way, how Christianity teaches people that they're inherently evil. My children are being taught that they're inherently good, and that they have a choice in what kind of person they will eventually become. Sure, they act out, and misbehave. They're still learning, in much the same way all people do. Among Christians, I hear, "This is a sin...", "That is a sin...", "You shouldn't do that, it makes God angry...". Often times I am confused on how anyone can find joy in life if their every thought, and action is being censured & judged by their religious leaders. But then again, as Chief Seattle said, "Perhaps it is because I am a savage, and do not understand..."

According to my beliefs, everything in the universe has a soul, and intangible essence. Anthros call it "anima", I think. I believe that animals have souls that are comparable to humans. I don't think anyone can look into the eyes of a dog, cat, or horse, and not see it. It's the same with all animals.

Nice to have you, Tex.



I do not believe that God, in His/Her/It's infinite wisdom would give man dominion over the earth and it's creatures. It makes more sense that we might be given stewardship over the earth, but not dominion. Dominion belongs to whomever created it.



I do find it amusing, in a strange way, how Christianity teaches people that they're inherently evil. My children are being taught that they're inherently good, and that they have a choice in what kind of person they will eventually become. Sure, they act out, and misbehave. They're still learning, in much the same way all people do. Among Christians, I hear, "This is a sin...", "That is a sin...", "You shouldn't do that, it makes God angry...". Often times I am confused on how anyone can find joy in life if their every thought, and action is being censured & judged by their religious leaders. But then again, as Chief Seattle said, "Perhaps it is because I am a savage, and do not understand..."

Seriously, it's really nice to have you.

Good point, Txn8ive. I suppose God rather gave us stewardship over earth, than full dominion. It still belongs to Him more than to us, though He invites us to use it fully. (but to destroy it?...)
As to people who see sin in every action, they are hypocrites. Not fully Christians. Please come up to them and say this:
"Sir/Madam, do you believe in Christ?"
"Why, yes!"
"Do you believe He died for your sins?"
"Why, yes!"
"Then why do you STILL see sin in every action??!?!?!? Grow up!!! Are you making the death of your Lord in vain?! Are you trying to annul it? He died for YOUR sins so that YOU could be FREE of sin and not worry about it!"

Hm. Yes. As you can see, even today, many people are very lost even when they are so close to the truth.

creetwins,

Hope I got your name right. I'm glad to be here. I've always found debate to be a little bit stimulating. If I may ask, who are your people? I noticed that you mentioned being Indian, and was curious. I am Aniyvwiya, otherwise known as Cherokee. I am from the Deer Clan, and am a member of the Southeastern Kituwah Nation, a small Cherokee band who's sole purpose is the preservation of our entire way of life. We've no federal recognition, and have absolutely no desire to gain such. We don't need the Feds to tell us who and what we are, nor do we need their permission. Mostly we just wish to get by on our own merits.

stopandthink,

I appreciate your candor. I am aware of how Christianity works. I was brought up surrounded by it. My father's family is Catholic, and my mother's is Methodist. When I was 14, I was baptised and confirmed as a member of the methodist church. I know and understand your world, even if I'm not an active part of it. The area I live in happens to be the buckle of the Bible Belt. The Assemblies of God headquarters are in Springfield, MO. I live in Buffalo, which is about 35 miles north. I've dealt with fundies who've made it their personal mission to convert me. I once sat through three guys each taking turns trying to convert me. Much their surprise, I was neither phased, nor antagonistic. I believe that the Creator provided for all of his individual people within their own circumstances, giving them the tools to deal with themselves, members of their communities, and with other peoples. In that respect, there is no "one true religion". Every religion contains a bit of the truth, and it's up to us to determine for ourselves what that is. Before you ask, I've not figured it out either. Perhaps that's the purpose of death. So that we'll finally know the truth. In the past, some have taken what was provided, through their circumstances, and used it to forward their own goals. It's how Christianity became the state religion in the Holy Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine was nothing if not shrewd. He never converted, he simply used what he saw as a golden opportunity to cement his own power. Throughout the millenia, people have used the name of Christ to justify genocide, ethnic-cleansing, slavery, etc. As a result, hundreds of millions of people all over the globe have been slaughtered, are being slaughtered, or may be slaughtered in the future. It's somewhat the same with Islam. Someone with a political agenda, or an ax to grind, takes the Muslim religion and molds it to suit their purpose. As a result, many die needlessly. It's nothing new.

stopandthink,

Something you mentioned caught my eye. You agreed that we're to have been stewards of the earth. You also seemed to imply that we should not be destroying the earth. In that respect, I agree wholeheartedly. We were meant to be stewards of the Earth, and as such our job is to preserve Her. Obviously, someone forgot to inform the masses.

Txn8ive, although the idea that "every religion contains a part of truth" is nice to think of, I believe it to be very false indeed. In fact, when I look at other religions, I see a distorted face of Christianity. It's like they were trying to get it right, but then put too much emphasis on that, or not enough on this, or changed that, or forgot this, and ended up with something crazy. Happens all the time.
Which brings me to your next point, all the terrible things people did using Christ as their shield. This is what happened. One can pick several quotes from the Bible to justify anything. The problem is when people swallow those quotes and don't look at their context. May be a pro-slavery quote was actually surrounded by anti-slavery material. One has to be careful. Though I think our heart always helps us, we know when something is wrong....at least some of us do.
Also, I am glad that we agree on the point concerning Earth.

Welcome Txn!

I don't agree with many of your views but you make clear points in plain English. You have a skill for expressing your opinions without treading on others' toes.

You are a good counterweight the shrieking righteousness of the likes of myself.

Originally posted by STOpandthink

I am not going to hell, but they might. They are my brothers, after all, and I want them to be with me in Heaven. I am just a nice guy. ;)

are you sure about that? all because you got yersef baptised in the blooooood of jaysus don't mean jack. you have a lot of pride, and that goes before the fall. the biggest assholes i've met in my life sound a lot like you.

Originally posted by ivan
you have a lot of pride, and that goes before the fall.

I always wondered was it a Sin to be Proud to be a Christian.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
I always wondered was it a Sin to be Proud to be a Christian.

<SMACK>:D

are you sure about that? all because you got yersef baptised in the blooooood of jaysus don't mean jack. you have a lot of pride, and that goes before the fall. the biggest assholes i've met in my life sound a lot like you
I am fairly sure about that.
Frankly, I do not put too much emphasis on baptism. But I do believe in the power of faith and the power of Jesus's blood. (Also, I ask you not to make fun of His name.)
And where do I show pride? I might be proud to be a Christian, but other than that, I would appreciate if you could point out my flaw, so that, perhaps, I could correct my mistake.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
<SMACK>:D

That a yes then :)

In which case, StopandThink your a sinner and your going to hell mwuahh

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I am fairly sure about that.
Frankly, I do not put too much emphasis on baptism. But I do believe in the power of faith and the power of Jesus's blood. (Also, I ask you not to make fun of His name.)
And where do I show pride? I might be proud to be a Christian, but other than that, I would appreciate if you could point out my flaw, so that, perhaps, I could correct my mistake.

you say, "i am not going to hell." that smacks of pride. as if you are so sure, and also gives you the license to think you aren't and need to save people. you feel as if you need to save people because you think you are RIGHT and everyone who is not like you is wrong.
i wonder what jaysus would think about that? i doubt he said to go around trying to convert the world. i think that is because of paul's arrogance and want to control the government back then.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I might be proud to be a Christian, but other than that,

Which is you saying "Im only commiting one sin so other than that im all good" So what, we are allowed to indulge in 1 sin??? I choose lust hehe

StopandThink it was actually a catch 22 situation, To avoid the sin you say "No im not proud to be a christian" which tells us your not happy with christianity or you say "Yes im proud to be christian" and break one of the Sins.

And that my christian fundie combative is the bible all over.

Amen.

stopandthink,

Here's my problem. You say that you look at other faiths, and see the face of Christianity distorted. First off, Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Most of the world's faiths are considerably older than that. Mine, for example, is somewhere close to 4,000 years. It emphasizes most of the same things I've seen in Christianity. Charity, kindness, a desire to live peacefully, etc. However, what it lacks, to me, are what makes it right for me. Not for everyone, but for me. I'm operating under the idea that you've perhaps not studied anything about my faith. I am a Traditional Cherokee. That means that, to the best of my abilities and circumstances, I follow the ways of my ancestors. I go to water every morning, which is a form of prayer. I give thanks for every meal, even if the food is something I don't like. (i.e.-liver) When dealing with people, I keep my eyes (but never my head) lowered, as a sign of respect. All of these things are a part of my faith. I live every single day as a continuous prayer, and I pray to the same God you do. My perception of said God is different from yours due to two things. Language, and circumstances. Your religion developed in a part of the Middle East that is, for all intent and purposes an extremely hostile environment. It's no wonder the idea of a jealous and unforgiving God emerged there. Well, I'll expand more later. This is all I've time for. Talk at ya later.

Txn8ive, Christianity is 2000 years old, yet the base for it is as old as the first human.
Also, how can you be praying to the same God as I do? Do you believe He is God who created Heavens and Earth, who is the Holy Trinity, both: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who is most Holy, who is Life, Love, and Light, who's acts are written in the Bible, whose Son came to earth and suffered and died for us and for our sins. Do you believe in that God? Because if you dont, you made up a god and he isn't real.
Though I am glad that you value charity, kindness, peace, and humbleness. Those are great virtues, now all you need is true faith and you will be set. Don't give up!
It's no wonder the idea of a jealous and unforgiving God emerged there.
Do I even need to explain your mistake? Or will you catch it yourself?

Also, how can you be praying to the same God as I do? Do you believe He is God who created Heavens and Earth, who is the Holy Trinity, both: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who is most Holy, who is Life, Love, and Light, who's acts are written in the Bible, whose Son came to earth and suffered and died for us and for our sins. Do you believe in that God? Because if you dont, you made up a god and he isn't real.

The man has been praying to , and believing in the same god as his ancestors, following a faith over 4000 years old, and you have the gall to tell him he made up his god? Christianity is the Jonny come lately, your faith is much younger.


Though I am glad that you value charity, kindness, peace, and humbleness. Those are great virtues, now all you need is true faith and you will be set. Don't give up!

You are just plain rude to insinuate this individual has no true faith. Arrogant is what it is.........what gives you the right.......

My God gives me the right. The only true God there is. He gives me the right.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
My God gives me the right. The only true God there is. He gives me the right.
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7

"By humility [and] the fear of the LORD [are] riches, and honour, and life." Proverbs 22:4

I said:
Though I am glad that you value charity, kindness, peace, and humbleness. Those are great virtues, now all you need is true faith and you will be set. Don't give up!
Then I added:
My God gives me the right. The only true God there is. He gives me the right.
Now think about that and the quotes you presented. Hopefully you will see that they have nothing to do with anything I have said.
Goodbye.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I said:
Though I am glad that you value charity, kindness, peace, and humbleness. Those are great virtues, now all you need is true faith and you will be set. Don't give up!
Then I added:
My God gives me the right. The only true God there is. He gives me the right.
Now think about that and the quotes you presented. Hopefully you will see that they have nothing to do with anything I have said.
Goodbye.
Yeah, they do. God never gave you any right to belittle anyone else's religious values. Unless I missed that Biblical quote...

SAT.........arrogance and intolerance are your god-given rights?

A far cry from charity, kindness, and humbleness.......