What is free will? How can one define it?
I have three thoughts:
1. Random "die" roll.
2. A big set of logical mathematical evaluations leading up to one solution.
3. Combination of 1+2.
It's interesting that none of them say that we have free will, in fact, they are saying that we are just a pawn in the hands of dice/independed variables.
When we believe in God, we can say that He gives us free will by whatever "magic way" He chose to do it. But what about you, non-believers? How do you defend your free will?
I guess what I am saying is: Where does the free will come from?

Free will means making no wrong choices. You have the option to do whatever you like and no outside power can influence you to make one choice or another. In some ways, free will might be bad, take the example of the dog with 2 bowls of food. i'm pretty sure everyone knows how it ends up. that would be an example of total free will.

another example would be that the dog chooses the one on the left. Why? because that is the one he picked. no reason, no correct outcome. just a choice by a hungry dog.

"Free will means making no wrong choices."
No. That's simply wrong. Free will means that you can make ANY choice. But you are right in:"You have the option to do whatever you like and no outside power can influence you to make one choice or another." Free will should depend on something entirely "in your self."
You still didn't answer my question. Where does the will come from? Was the dog's choice a roll of a dice or some kind of calculation or something entirely different?

Total Freewill is making no wrong choices, since if you gave him two bowls to eat from and said that he couldnt eat from the one on the right because it was sinful then its no longer Freewill, for their is a price to pay.

I believe my freewill is the ability to make choices and actions soley through the use of my own mind, and to accept and face the consequences of said actions be they good or bad.

"Nowadays, we know that the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. Now, these laws, because they're so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules; We're mostly water. Our behavior isn't going to be an exception to these basic physical laws, so it starts to look like whether it's God setting things up in advance and knowing everything you're gonna do, or whether it's these basic physical laws governing everything, there's not a lot of room left for freedom."
-Waking Life

"It starts to look like all your decisions are really just a charade. Think about how it happens; There's some electrical activity in your brain, your neurons fire, they send a signal down into your nervous system, it passes along down into your muscle fibers, they twitch, and you might, say, reach out your arm. It looks like it's a free action on your part, but every one of those, every part of that process, is actually governed by physical law: chemical laws, electrical laws, and so on. So, now it starts to looks like the Big Bang set up the initial conditions, and the whole rest of our history, the whole rest of human history and even before, is really just sort of the playing out of sub-atomic particles according to these basic fundamental physical laws."

Since free will has been compared here to choices, I would say that each choice leads to a different destiny.
Choice can depend upon awareness for the outcome, hense the educated guess.
The choice of the dog is taken under consideration, what of the bowl? You would say that the bowl has no choice, that one bowl could not decide not to be eaten from. Yet, you cannot know this for sure. Could the bowl influence the dog?
Ponder how this and the original question do not matter.
Each of lifes choices are an adventure. Where does freewill come from? It is a natural occurance.
Previous environment may effect the choices of living creatures.
Since the dog mentioned is color blind smell may play a part. If not then it may be which bowl attracts his attention. He may be used to eating from the right or left.
Humans make choices based upon so called intellect. Yet, intellect changes from human to human.
I choose not to follow mans religions yet, I believe in God. Another uses mans religions to seek God. Freewill at play.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
"Free will means making no wrong choices."
No. That's simply wrong. Free will means that you can make ANY choice. But you are right in:"You have the option to do whatever you like and no outside power can influence you to make one choice or another." Free will should depend on something entirely "in your self."
You still didn't answer my question. Where does the will come from? Was the dog's choice a roll of a dice or some kind of calculation or something entirely different?

Free will and morality are incompatible. Morality and the differences between good and evil are taught. They are imposed by society to be the norm.


It seems to me that you might be trying to argue the point that the dog would die because it would have no preferance over which bowl to choose from. And maybe you are right. Maybe in order to exist there can be no free will. There must be imbalance to make choices, decisions to achieve a favorable outcome

Perhaps it is not our place to question "why?". Things only end up bad when that happens. Think back to any multiple choice test you've taken. Whenever you start looking deeper into the question, you start to doubt and torture yourself for no reason. But, if you can just accept that your gut instinct is correct, you will be right probably more often than second guessing, and you will be a whole lot happier.

Why did the dog choose the bowel on the left? Who cares? He just did, thats all. He had to choose one, so why not the left. my interpratation of the dog's thought process, "Man, am i hungry! Hmm, which bowel should i choose? Left or Right? Ah what the hell, i'll go with the one on the left, I'm hungry!"

Lokideviluk, you didn't answer my question, which is where does free will come from, what is its origin? I know what it is, I wan't to know where is it from. Also, if I say to the person/dog: "Don't eat from this bowl or I will kill you", the free will still remains. One still has the power to choose any one of the two.
Uhlouis, excellent responce. So do you suggest that we don't have free will, but are merely a pawn in logical/scientific calculations? (Comment: Just because God knows everything, it doesn't rob us of our free will. I can write more on that if you want.)
Dan Fussell, you didn't quite answer the question either. A bowl choosing the dog or what? Does that even make sense? Also, lets assume (apparently we just love this example) that the two bowls are exactly alike in all respects and that a dog has no previous preferences, but is a completely normal dog. Also, expand on your intelect? What is it? I just thinks it's a big input/output logical device. You give it data; it returns a solution.
Evil Homer, you make the things so simple and I agree with you, who really cares? But I do want to know: do I choose or does my brain? WHY did the dog eventually chose the left bowl? Why not the right: it was just as good. Both sides of the equation were the same, yet there had to be a certain constant to tip the balance. A roll of a die? Who knows...
Also any society norms do not limit the free will, they merely direct it in a certain way, one can still choose anything.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
But I do want to know: do I choose or does my brain?

Wow what a complex question because well if you choose, your using your brain to make that choice and if you use your brain well then your using the brain to make that choice... so i guess your using your brain whatever... o well.

Freechoice came from there being more than one option to pick from quite simply. Giving an example of a dog with two identical bowls is pointless, "Why did he choose the right one" makes no point to any argument.

The way i see it, is Freechoice is generated differently by peoples situation, there emotions and so on. If i was giving two bowls of icecream one had 4 scoops and the other 2, id take the 4 scoops because i like icecream, someone who might want to conserve the calories would take the 2 scoops because thats their choice, and since there not restricted by outside forces i am to say that is freewill.

That answer your question?

yes, one has the OPTION to choose anything, but the reason i choose not to maim, kill, rape, and steal is because i have been influenced by society. if there were no outside influence, these choices would be just as good as the others.

as for the dog example. no one will ever know why he chose the one on the left. I guess, if there were no influences at all, and the field was completely level, the choice would be a coin toss. Why did it land on heads? Because that's the side it landed on. It's not any better or worse than tails, it's just the way things turned out. Flip the coin the next time, tails comes on top. Why? see above ^

yes, one has the OPTION to choose anything, but the reason i choose not to maim, kill, rape, and steal is because i have been influenced by society. if there were no outside influence, these choices would be just as good as the others.
That's your sole reason? I don't think you've thought it over enough. While I care just as little about society as any murderous sociopath, I have enough brain function to realize that those rules are in place because they help nobody. I follow some laws because not doing so would be detrimental to myself. Yeah, I'm a selfish bastard, so what? And I'm a liberal, go figure. I guess a good question would be that in that situation, are you really choosing, or is society chosing for you, and you just don't have the willpower to choose for yourself?

It's not any better or worse than tails, it's just the way things turned out. Flip the coin the next time, tails comes on top. Why? see above ^
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649#121
Interesting study...

But I do want to know: do I choose or does my brain?
Who the hell are you without your brain? Certainly wouldn't be here...


I'm a big fan of "free will". Because without it, why the fuck would I care? But then again, without it I wouldn't care that I wasn't caring because I'm not really there to care... anyways, without free will, no god has an excuse to be the jackass that he is anymore. Currently science has reached the level of quantum theory, dictating that at the most minute level, the world is based entirely on chance and only on very large levels can something ever be predicted. While Einstein hated that, I don't think I could live without it. To claim that your life is based off of nothing but strict mathematical calculations that can be predicted no matter what or that God is in control, would be to say that your life is a waste because we all know how it's going to end.

Loki: That answer your question
I understand that you think that only logical calculations are involved in making a choice, am I right?

Evil Homer: So you too are saying that it's a mix of logic and die? And where did the law originate? Because the man chose that some things are better than others. Why? (Please don't asnwer that, this isn't the place)

WOW! WOW! What an awesome article, Blibblob. I would like to see where it leads, but for this topic it would suggest, i think, that we don't even choose. That black box does...creepy.
Also, when I was asking about my brain I meant: Do I choose or does a logical formula inside my head does? I mean I can use my brain in both cases.

I think that sometimes a choice is made because the mind sees no particular profit in a particular choice. Therefore a random selection is made requiring no thought.
Confusion over choice could also be settled by a random choice.

Stop, it isn't a law. Just my thoughts.

This leads me back to an earlier thread. When you get right down to the basics. I mean the very basic basics, good and bad no longer exists. Those things involve judgement. Each choice you make has different outcomes and consequences. At the start they are just different, no better or worse, only later do we label them good and bad.

Blib, oh god, the last thing we need is to know the future, we'd only end up messing it up. Oedipus anyone? If we knew the future, wouldn't that automatically discount free will, and in turn, replace it with fate? ugh, if you want my advice, don't ponder this future and fate thing too much. Eventually you run around in circles and hurt your head.

I am a firm believer that free will cannot exist. We might get close, nothing can really force us to make any choice or another, but we are definately guided in our decisions.

So does everyone really believe then, that we have free will?

Let's say for the sake of argument that free will WAS God given at some point. Even if you don't believe in God just accept the premise for a moment.

Do we REALLY have free will?

Evil Homer, guided by whom? A roll of a die? Also, what do you mean there is no good or bad? I don't see that. I think there is a hardcoded law in our hearts that tells us what is good and what is not: like killing is bad, but generosity is good.

Yeah, Sal, because God gave us free will. If He didn't then He would just make us like soldiers. "Tik-tok. All. Hail. God. Hooray."
Also, I didn't say free will was God. I said that God gave us free will by some means.

Blib, oh god, the last thing we need is to know the future, we'd only end up messing it up. Oedipus anyone? If we knew the future, wouldn't that automatically discount free will, and in turn, replace it with fate? ugh, if you want my advice, don't ponder this future and fate thing too much. Eventually you run around in circles and hurt your head.
I see the study as less of a quest into the future but more as a quest as to how powerful the human brain might be. While very very skeptical of "magic" or the paranormal I find that often science does not have an answer and neither would god(as in the ability to blame it on him). So many things have since been "proven" or more understanding to it by science such as well acupuncture, auras(electromagnetic field that all living things(and some nonliving) give off), and herbal medicines. We don't consider them magic, but used too. I have a feeling that many things we currently consider paranormal will end up being perfectly explainable by scientific means and those little boxes will be one of them.

I am a firm believer that free will cannot exist. We might get close, nothing can really force us to make any choice or another, but we are definately guided in our decisions.
Why can't it exist? Mostly you have to consider what has the free will, stopandthink asked brain or soul. I don't believe in a soul, and the brain seems to make all of the decisions. But ins't you making the decisions free will itself? Guided by what? Past experiences, advice? How would that hamper free will? You're still the final one to choose.

I think there is a hardcoded law in our hearts that tells us what is good and what is not: like killing is bad, but generosity is good.
If that was true then conservatives wouldn't exist.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Evil Homer, guided by whom? A roll of a die? Also, what do you mean there is no good or bad? I don't see that. I think there is a hardcoded law in our hearts that tells us what is good and what is not: like killing is bad, but generosity is good.

Yeah, Sal, because God gave us free will. If He didn't then He would just make us like soldiers. "Tik-tok. All. Hail. God. Hooray."
Also, I didn't say free will was God. I said that God gave us free will by some means.

The guide? call it god, your concience, society, learned ideas, whatever. The guidance is whatever that drives you to do what you do.

Good and bad are very highly developed concepts. It takes a great deal of intelligence and sense of enlightenment to realize these ideas. My cat: kills bugs for no reason and doesn't share her food with the other cat. Is she evil or bad?

To really understand free will, we gotta go to the basics. Take out emotion, take out chance, and what is left? Logic. On a level playing field, without chance, a logical choice is impossible. However, when we factor those other things in, a choice is made. But those other things are external forces.

If you go to the very very basics, there isn't any good or bad, just different. As stated above, good and bad are concepts created by man. You have a choice with outcomes. Only later are those outcomes labeled advantagous or detrimental.

Finally, Stop, and i think this fits in very nicely with the argument, how can there be an all powerful, omniscient god and also be free will? If god is all powerful, then everything we do is sanctioned by him, and thus, isn't really our choice. Even if he lets us do things he doesn't like, he is still omniscient, because he is the absolute god. Because of that, he knows the choice, and the decision before we even make it.

Finally, even if those aren't true, he still punishes us for doing things which he doesn't like. That is like giving a guy the option to give you his money, or get his head blown off. He doesn't have much of a choice now does he? Note: please don't delve too deep in this on-the-spot analogy. It's only purpose is to prove a point. For this example, let us assume that dying is not the preferred option.

Blibblob:But ins't you making the decisions free will itself? Guided by what? Past experiences, advice? How would that hamper free will? You're still the final one to choose.
Then there exists an equation, into which we can plug in all your experience, advices, and so on, and get back a logical result of what to do. Are you saying that your free will is the sum of your previous experience? If yes, then you have no free will.
Blibblob:If that was true then conservatives wouldn't exist.
Never underestimate the power of people who twisted their conscience (con=with science=knowledge, conscience=with knowledge) and became "blind leaders of the blind."
Evil Homer: The guide? call it god, your concience, society, learned ideas, whatever. The guidance is whatever that drives you to do what you do.
Oh, hold on a second. God is different from conscience, society, learned ideas, and whatever. God can let us have a competely free will, God has the power to do so. Other things do not, and they will be just variables in a logical formula (see my responce to Blibblob). There is a big difference there.
As stated above, good and bad are concepts created by man.
Christians believe that God is Good, therefore we set Him as the standard of good.
Finally, even if those aren't true, he still punishes us for doing things which he doesn't like. That is like giving a guy the option to give you his money, or get his head blown off. He doesn't have much of a choice now does he? Note: please don't delve too deep in this on-the-spot analogy. It's only purpose is to prove a point. For this example, let us assume that dying is not the preferred option
Now, now. We can't say dying is not an option. That's ridiculous. What about all the people who commit suicide? Death is ceirtainly an option for them.
All the person has to do is consider what he loves/needs more: money or life. You will be surprised that depending on the amount on money, some people will not choose life.
how can there be an all powerful, omniscient god and also be free will?
Important. Just because God knows what you will chose doesn't mean the choice isn't free. Prescience does NOT influence the choice in any way. I pray that you may see that. God knows what we will do, because He is outside of time, for Him you already made your choice. YOU made the choice. He just knows it. Do you see? He stands at the "end of time" and looks back. I can look back and see that you posted in this forum. Does my knowledge affect your decision? No, that's rediculous. Same thing with God: He knows what YOU chose, because for Him, everything already happened. Time is a sort of illusion.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Important. Just because God knows what you will chose doesn't mean the choice isn't free. Prescience does NOT influence the choice in any way. I pray that you may see that. God knows what we will do, because He is outside of time, for Him you already made your choice. YOU made the choice. He just knows it. Do you see? He stands at the "end of time" and looks back. I can look back and see that you posted in this forum. Does my knowledge affect your decision? No, that's rediculous. Same thing with God: He knows what YOU chose, because for Him, everything already happened. Time is a sort of illusion.

Id be interested to know how you know this? Or where in the bible it says this?

Are you saying that god knew that I would choose to be an atheist, but went ahead and allowed me to be born and live as an atheist just so he could punish me for eternity in hell? This is not my idea of a nice guy.

What is free will?

Free will is when I make a choice WITHOUT COERSION.

I do not have free will over my basel body functions. I can choose NOT to breath but as soon as I pass out, my body starts to breath again.

Free will is not choosing something out of fear of the consequences. It is a choice made freely, without coersion, without guilt, without fear, without promises, without threats.

Originally posted by Echo2

Free will is not choosing something out of fear of the consequences. It is a choice made freely, without coersion, without guilt, without fear, without promises, without threats.

Which clearly means that Humans under Gods Wrath do not have free will. Stop, Jere etc you cant dispute this without changing the meaning of words, and if you start doing that i hope the Mods ban you for complete retarded actions against fellow Forum goers

Lokideviluk - Don't be so hard on Jere. Those who have been indoctrinated into the church cannot see the trees through the forest.

They are like children, you can convince them of anything if you make them feel like it was their choice to believe. Fear is a very powerfull weapon. So are promises of a huggy, feely afterlife.

O good point Echo, I havent taking into consideration the way that the Father 'touched him' when he was younger that has allowed this open view of the world.

I humbly beg thy forgiveness Jere, May God have mercy on my soul :)

Stop, i know dying is an option. I just said for the argument, assume that it is not. Kinda like in a math problem: let x equal the number of clowns. x doesn't always have to equal the number of clowns, but for that problem we shall accept that it does.

second, omniscience does discount free will. Of course it influences the choice, because technically the choice has already been made, you just don't know it yet. If i know the future, there can be no other outcome but the future i see. Otherwise, i wouldn't be seeing the future.

Echo2, you are off topic again. I don't care what free will is. I want you to tell me where it comes from.
Also, your idea of nice God is apparently wrong. You are trying to make a god to fit yourself. That's not how it works

Evil Homer, this isn't math! There is a difference. We simply can NOT ignore an option.
second, omniscience does discount free will. Of course it influences the choice, because technically the choice has already been made, you just don't know it yet. If i know the future, there can be no other outcome but the future i see. Otherwise, i wouldn't be seeing the future
Ah...I want to say "grow up", but that wouldn't be nice. How can I explain my point any clearer?
The choice WAS made, but it WAS made by YOU. YOU made the choice. God simply knows it because for Him YOU already made that choice. Let me say that one more time: YOU made the choice.
Also, YOU don't know the future, so we need not discuss that option.

Originally posted by STOpandthink

Also, your idea of nice God is apparently wrong. You are trying to make a god to fit yourself. That's not how it works


You do this all the time Stop, With the scraps of information in the Bible you come up with all kinds of assumptions on what
God thinks and does, and will do and wont do, THIS is making a God to fit your needs and desires and you do this daily.

Then there exists an equation, into which we can plug in all your experience, advices, and so on, and get back a logical result of what to do. Are you saying that your free will is the sum of your previous experience? If yes, then you have no free will.
There is no other option as to what free will is. That is how we make choices. What makes it free will is because we're making the choices using our experiences based off of more of our choices, we aren't making these choices based off of what somebody else told us. Although, in some cases you don't get a logical result back, so there is obviously some flaw within the reasoning meaning that there are uncertainties in the formula. If you were privy to quantum mechanics you'd know a little bit about the basic randomness of it all.

Never underestimate the power of people who twisted their conscience (con=with science=knowledge, conscience=with knowledge) and became "blind leaders of the blind."
Hey, dumbass, don't try and tell me what "conscience" means, especially when you try and break it down... and fail, miserably. There is a Latin word, conscientia. No, it doesn't mean "with knowledge". Sheesh, don't try and weasle out stupid things like that, they don't fly. You said that there was a "hardcoded law... that tells us what is good and what is not". So you want to claim that more than half of the Christian religious base is completely wrong and is going to hell, and almost a half of the world. Try again.

Evil Homer, this isn't math! There is a difference. We simply can NOT ignore an option.
We don't have to ignore the option. But it is a negligable option and it's being used in a retarded radical statement.

Ah...I want to say "grow up", but that wouldn't be nice. How can I explain my point any clearer?
The choice WAS made, but it WAS made by YOU. YOU made the choice. God simply knows it because for Him YOU already made that choice. Let me say that one more time: YOU made the choice.
Also, YOU don't know the future, so we need not discuss that option.
Oh, hey, I agree with him, does this mean I should "grow up" too? Oh that's right, you're a year older than me, you know everything! You can say we made the choice but you have no valid reasoning as to why. If God exists and is omnipotent he created this world knowing exactly what would happen, the way that he peiced it together is why things happen as they do. Therefore it is his fault and choices that cause ours.

Loki, all my believes are rooted in the Bible. Everything that I say here is based directly or indirectly on the Bible or saints' works. I do not wish to make anything up.
The Bible gives us more information than you can imagine, probably because you didn't read it, and if you did, you obviously didn't understand it as you should have.

Conscience: [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin conscientia, from consciens, conscient- present participle of conscire, to be conscious of _: com-, intensive pref.; see com- + scre, to know; see skei- in Indo-European Roots.]
I think my point stands valid. Conscience does mean "to know" and "to know" means to have knowledge. May be I didn't divide the word right, but I nailed the meaning.
Blibblob:
What makes it free will is because we're making the choices using our experiences based off of more of our choices,
So you are making all your choices based on your experiences? What about when you were a child? When you were just born. You didn't have any experiences. Or did you? I know about quantum science, but it's in its beginning and is not a very reliable source. From their standpoint everything is random.
Oh that's right, you're a year older than me, you know everything!
Please. I never said that and you are being silly by assuming that. I think I am more educated than most people of my age, that's all.
If God exists and is omnipotent he created this world knowing exactly what would happen, the way that he peiced it together is why things happen as they do. Therefore it is his fault and choices that cause ours.
Yes, He does know what will happen, and yet it was good in His eyes to make the world as He saw fit. When a person has free will, some inevitably will choose wrong. Is it God's fault He gave us free will? Did He cause us to sin? No! We choose so every day. Who are we? I am asking again: Who are we to argue against God? He knows more than you can imagine (literally). Who are we to tell Him that He is wrong, when He is GOD. Do you get it? He is GOD. I think He can do whatever He wants, and I am grateful to Him that He loves us.

Then if God knows what will happen, you aren't really making a choice. You are fufilling destiny. If the future was for you to decide to take a shower tomorrow, you don't really have any choice in the matter. You may think you do, but you cannot. Because it is impossible for you to choose not to take a shower.

i'll say it again, Omniscience denies Free Will. Ther is absolutely no way the 2 can co-exist!

and as for the math thing, forget it. i put in that little clause so that we might avoid this argument, but now i see that it was a futile effort.

Noooo!!! Argh! Please, try to understand:
There is no destiny.
You decide you want to take a shower today.
God knew that yesterday, because YOU decide to take the shower today. (remember that nothing is impossible with God)
God knows your choices because YOU chose them. YOU did, He didn't. There is no fate, no predestination, no destiny, non of that. It's your choices all along. God already saw them and He knows them, but YOU chose them. Again, think of it as if He is standing at the end of timeline and looking back. We know that Hitler led Germany in WW2, does that mean he didn't have a choice? No! We know that BECAUSE he chose so. Same thing with God. He looks back in time and our choices and He knows them only because we already chose them. For us the time is now, for Him it is already past.
I really want you to see that the two can exist together. One doesn't exclude the other.

I think my point stands valid. Conscience does mean "to know" and "to know" means to have knowledge. May be I didn't divide the word right, but I nailed the meaning.
What?! You never addressed my rebutal to your point! I was making a comment that I was highly insulted that you think you'd need to improperly break down a simplistic elementary school word's etymology to me. And here you aren't addressing the point, your just being an idiotic ass.

So you are making all your choices based on your experiences? What about when you were a child? When you were just born. You didn't have any experiences. Or did you? I know about quantum science, but it's in its beginning and is not a very reliable source. From their standpoint everything is random.
Well, you're certainly right when you say you don't know shit about quantum science! First of all, quantum science is well over 60 years old and has just as much evidence(if not more) as the theory of relativity, mostly meaning it has more evidence than any other theoretical construct ever devised.

Please. I never said that and you are being silly by assuming that. I think I am more educated than most people of my age, that's all.
Hey, fucktard. If you're attempting a condescending, arrogant, sarcastic debate and of being an asshole, then you should stop. In case you didn't know only I am allowed to do that.

Yes, He does know what will happen, and yet it was good in His eyes to make the world as He saw fit. When a person has free will, some inevitably will choose wrong. Is it God's fault He gave us free will? Did He cause us to sin? No! We choose so every day. Who are we? I am asking again: Who are we to argue against God? He knows more than you can imagine (literally). Who are we to tell Him that He is wrong, when He is GOD. Do you get it? He is GOD. I think He can do whatever He wants, and I am grateful to Him that He loves us.
You completely missed what I said. Here, let's make this simple. Either debate the points and stop attempting to preach and being an asshole or... just stop spamming. Because frankly, my entire point was that if God exists than free will cannot.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Noooo!!! Argh! Please, try to understand:
There is no destiny.
You decide you want to take a shower today.
God knew that yesterday, because YOU decide to take the shower today. (remember that nothing is impossible with God)
God knows your choices because YOU chose them. YOU did, He didn't. There is no fate, no predestination, no destiny, non of that. It's your choices all along. God already saw them and He knows them, but YOU chose them. Again, think of it as if He is standing at the end of timeline and looking back. We know that Hitler led Germany in WW2, does that mean he didn't have a choice? No! We know that BECAUSE he chose so. Same thing with God. He looks back in time and our choices and He knows them only because we already chose them. For us the time is now, for Him it is already past.
I really want you to see that the two can exist together. One doesn't exclude the other.

Who told you this? Or please quote the bible references that tell us this, or simply explain that this is just you trying to make shit up to prove a point

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Noooo!!! Argh! Please, try to understand:
There is no destiny.
You decide you want to take a shower today.
God knew that yesterday, because YOU decide to take the shower today. (remember that nothing is impossible with God)
God knows your choices because YOU chose them. YOU did, He didn't. There is no fate, no predestination, no destiny, non of that. It's your choices all along. God already saw them and He knows them, but YOU chose them. Again, think of it as if He is standing at the end of timeline and looking back. We know that Hitler led Germany in WW2, does that mean he didn't have a choice? No! We know that BECAUSE he chose so. Same thing with God. He looks back in time and our choices and He knows them only because we already chose them. For us the time is now, for Him it is already past.
I really want you to see that the two can exist together. One doesn't exclude the other.

You might want to try arguing the time line for your proof. We currently view time as linear. Scientists believe this may not actually be accurate.

Also our idea of what free will truly is may also be inaccurate. I can make a choice to do good or bad in the moment but past behaviour predicts present and future behavior... Therefore even my friends will most likely accurately predict what I will do in a given situation. It is not so black and white as how we have made it here in this thread. There are many variables involved.

Sal, the past behavior is simply a set of data, like anything else. Also, what variables are you talking about?
Loki, I will try and provide actual support for my claim. I will do it tomorrow, it's getting late and my eyes are starting to twitch...again. hehe.:@@:
Blibblob, sorry I can't talk to you. If I remove all the curse words, then your sentences don't make sense.

Blibblob, sorry I can't talk to you. If I remove all the curse words, then your sentences don't make sense.
HA! Nice try.

" Each choice you make has different outcomes and consequences. At the start they are just different, no better or worse, only later do we label them good and bad."

When I try to "boil it down" I'm left with similar but different thoughts.

the yin and the yang
black and white
cold and hot
negative and positve
wrong and right
evil and good

Appears to be a question of balance.
the interaction of two energies..
they cannot exist without each other..

Do these elements form the fabric of our existence ?
So then are the choices made with free will ?

example..Some say money is the root of all evil..
In the hands of one may be spent on coke and hookers.
Yet in the hands of another may feed the hungry and cloth the naked.
Your choice..No ?;)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Echo2, you are off topic again. I don't care what free will is. I want you to tell me where it comes from.

I thought the topic was Free Will. Just because you are not getting the religious connected answer you want does not make my post off topic.

Mammals brains evolved to incorporate their environment and make choices to accomodate it. That is where free will comes from. Even animals have free will. If you have ever owned a pet you know this.

Scientists will tell you that the ability to adapt to ones invironment is the single most determining factor of intellegence. Any species that cannot do this will eventually die off. We see this in individuals. People who cannot or will not adapt to their environment are outcasts. Better known as criminals, mentally ill or sociopaths.

Your belief that some sky fairy designed us to make choices and therefore we have free will is illogical. All mammals make choices.

Choosing to ignore science and believe in a superstition is free will.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Sal, the past behavior is simply a set of data, like anything else. Also, what variables are you talking about?

Yes Stop past behavior is data but it is anything but simple.

As we grow and mature and make certain choices those choices have consequences which affect us in a positive way or in a negative way. Our behavior slowly becomes habit or forms patterns. That is why destructive or negative behavior is hard to change. The human mind is complex. It is not really "Just like anything else".

When I spoke of variables with regard to free will I was refering to people's past and the environment in which they were raised. Who our parents are, whether we are born to rich people or poor, educated or uneducated, tolerant or narrow thinking. All that affects the choices that we make. That's why I said I believe the concept of free will is extremely complex.

Echo2:
I thought the topic was Free Will. Just because you are not getting the religious connected answer you want does not make my post off topic.
I want a good answer to my question (look at the my first post) I don't care if it is religious or not. I just want this topic to focus on that and not go off somewhere else.
And again, you are doing just that. I don't care how it evolved or what it is. Tell me where it is rooted, tell me how it works, where is it from?
Sal:
Yes Stop past behavior is data but it is anything but simple.
I never tried to make it sound simple, in fact, I absolutely agree that it is immensely complex. But! Is it just a super complex formula or something more? Can we simply "plug in" the person's experiences, habits, behavior, nurture, nature, and all that, into a BIG formula and get a result back? Or is there something more? What is it? Where does it come from?

Our free will is rooted in our existance through evolution. Just as our instincts are. Just as our drive to learn more, run faster, etc. Because we are an evolving creature we develop abilities that help us survive. Free will is one of those abilities.

So it is a sort of instinct? I think you are agreeing that our free will is simply a big formula.

Its a Developed Attribute, and since your trying to bend this into what you want it to be. Everything could be made into a formula if you give the scientists enough time so whats your point?

Free will is a developed attribute. It evolved just like all other attributes.

A few animals use tools. Some can solve complex puzzles. These attributes are not taught. They are actions developed of free will.

Stop, as to your hitler reference. It could be argued that he didn't really have a choice in the matter. And this fits perfectly with my argument.

Simplified: Hitler started WWII. We know this, it is history. So, in order for this fact to remain a fact, Hitler had to have started WWII. If he hadn't, then this wouldn't be a fact. In fact, WWII might not have existed.

So, looking back, Hitler had no option but to start WWII, because otherwise he would have created a time paradox. At the time, Hitler might have thought that he had a choice, because he didn't know the futur, but in reality, it was his fate to start the war.

fate denies free will. An omniscient god would know your fate before it has happened. Kinda like you said, he's looking at history, only it is still in the present.

Loki, Echo, evolved or not, it is still a big formula (I judge from your words). If it evolved then from what? What is its origin? If it is just a formula, then we don't have a choice. (well, I do, since I believe in God. :) )
Homer, we know the history BECAUSE it happened that way, BECAUSE the people chose to do those things which they did. If they chose something else, then our history would have been different. Hitler did have a choice. That choice would have affected our current situation. It's not the other way around. You are trying to fix the present and then look at the past. You can't do that. The past is fixed, the present is up to us.

No, Hitler didn't really have a choice. Otherwise our current world would not exist. Since it does exist, the only way for this to have happened is if Hitler made that "choice".

There is only one road, only later do we wonder about our choices. But there is only one road, otherwise we would be different people worrying about different choices.

The only difference between the past and the present is timing.

Just an idea for all the suppossed "christian rightists" and a great tool for argue-ing against them:

If God gave man freewill who the fuck are you to take it away?

No, Hitler didn't really have a choice. Otherwise our current world would not exist. Since it does exist, the only way for this to have happened is if Hitler made that "choice".

There is only one road, only later do we wonder about our choices. But there is only one road, otherwise we would be different people worrying about different choices.

The only difference between the past and the present is timing
I am sorry, you are completely wrong. If Hitler didn't start the war, then we would know his choice anyways--he didn't. We can't say: because we have now, the past must have been as it was. It's the other way around: because the past was the way it was, we have now the way now is. I hope you see that, because you are quite mistaking in your reasoning.

If God gave man freewill who the fuck are you to take it away?
Who is trying to? I don't know what you are talking about. Who can take away a free will anyways? Who but God, that is?

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Who is trying to? I don't know what you are talking about. Who can take away a free will anyways? Who but God, that is?

I freely choose to shun God and rebel against his choosen ways and I also freely choose to go to Heaven because of it.

Heh. You can't choose what you are unable to do. I can choose to fly, but I can't. Also, why would you want to go to Heaven? It's going to be all about God.

The same reason David Gale died.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I am sorry, you are completely wrong. If Hitler didn't start the war, then we would know his choice anyways--he didn't. We can't say: because we have now, the past must have been as it was. It's the other way around: because the past was the way it was, we have now the way now is. I hope you see that, because you are quite mistaking in your reasoning.


I see now that it is not a mistake in my reasoning, merely a difference in opinion. You see actions as occuring independently of each other while I see them as interlocked. Both are equally valid takes on things.

Since we both see the same thing from different angles, it would be futile for me to try and convince you that mine is right and for you to do the same.

Originally posted by StopAndThink
Heh. You can't choose what you are unable to do. I can choose to fly, but I can't. Also, why would you want to go to Heaven? It's going to be all about God.



The same reason David Gale died.

Sorry, Loki, I don't know who David Gale is. Can you enlighten me?
Homer, I believe actions are interlocked--the only way for my action now is because of what came before. Exampe:
You start with a link:
O
And then you can add one more, and one more:
O-O-O-O...
The links you added were based on that first link. If we want to change the first one, we need to go back, removing the links one by one:
O-O <- then O change it to X
and then we can go:
X-X-X-X...
See?

yeah, i see. but in order to have that O as the last link, that first link HAD do be an O. basing this off your example.


oh, btw. 666 posts. cool coincidence. yes i know it was inevitable.

Hurry up and make another post.
Sorry, here is a more clear picture:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-D-E-C...
But if we change the first link A, to, let's say X, then the chain will not follow as before, although some things might remain the same:
X-Y-Z-D-E-P-Q-D-Y-D...

David Gale is a character in the movie "The life of David Gale" who proved a point that could only be proved through death.

My point was that If i ever made it to Heaven it would prove that you dont need to resolve yourself of sin, take jesus into your heart or believe in God to get there.

Stop your last post didn't make too much sense. How can D occur twice in one sequence, and since when did it come after P?
there is no logic to that sequence. If all events were independent and random, your list would make sense, but you said yourself that things are interlocked.

Loki:
My point was that If i ever made it to Heaven it would prove that you dont need to resolve yourself of sin, take jesus into your heart or believe in God to get there.
No it wouldn't. You might get to heaven because you accepted Christ and His love and death for you, thereby washing off your sins with His blood. Anybody who goes to heaven will be washed from sin.

Evil Homer:
Stop your last post didn't make too much sense. How can D occur twice in one sequence, and since when did it come after P?
there is no logic to that sequence. If all events were independent and random, your list would make sense, but you said yourself that things are interlocked.
Guess I lost you again.
Let's say that D was "Eat." I can eat several times, right? There you go--several Ds.
If, for example, X was "start of fasting", I would have less Ds. See? They are related, but when I fast I have to have some Ds (I gotta eat), and when I don't I will have more of them (or they will be bigger :) )
Also, one link is depended on all links that came before, not just the previous one.

You didn't lose me, just your order had no...order. Only now are you adding your eating analogy. And that doesnt have much to do with this at all. Except for the fact that you need to eat before you can stop eating.

Yes, i know that all of the links are dependant on each other, not just adjacent ones, and that is exactly my point. If we change an event in the beginning, it affects an event in the end.

Ok, so now you agree. We can't say that current situation determines the past. The past determines the present. So what you said:
Simplified: Hitler started WWII. We know this, it is history. So, in order for this fact to remain a fact, Hitler had to have started WWII. If he hadn't, then this wouldn't be a fact. In fact, WWII might not have existed.
Does not make sense, because it is fact today only because he did choose to wage war.

I am trying to show you guys that without a higher power, you submit that a person is just a sum of nature (the incoming info) and nurture (the way he processes incoming info). It's like a big formula--you plug stuff in, you get the answer. Plug and chug. No free will.

It all depends on which way you look at things. Choice by choice, the past determines the future. However, if you hit rewind an interesting thing happens. You see how everything is connected and how the present requires certain actions in the past in order to exist. Think of it like a movie. The end of the movie would make no sense if the beginning was changed. Say you watched Star Wars one day. A week later you watch it again, but someone taped over the beginning with the miss america pagent. Then the movie doesnt make a lot of sense anymore. "Wait, so Darth Vader is Miss Vermont???"
In order for the end of the movie to make sense, you have to have the right beginning.

Yes, but the end builds up on the beginning. If we have the end, then there was only one beginning. If we have the beginning, there can be infinite ends.
Also, time doesn't go backwards.....at least not yet.

Exactly, we have the end, that means there is only one possible beginning for it. Right now, we are making beginnings. There is an end somewhere off in the future, but we dont know what it is. But it exists, and will inevitably happen. However for that unknown end to happen, this beginning MUST happen first.

True, time doesnt go backwards, but that doesnt mean our percetption of it can't. Start at the present, then look at history starting with its most recent events and work backwards.

hehe. I am beginning to think that we are both arguing the same exact point but in different terms.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I am trying to show you guys that without a higher power, you submit that a person is just a sum of nature (the incoming info) and nurture (the way he processes incoming info). It's like a big formula--you plug stuff in, you get the answer. Plug and chug. No free will.

If there is a higher power then nature is "designed" and "finely tuned" making free will even more remote than an in unplanned universe.

BTW I personally can't help but suspend judgement on whether we have free will. Is life a video tape (determined) or a video game (a spectrum of possible endings)? I just can't work it out myself. I have no idea how those of you with an answer have come to your conclusion.

I see it more as a video. But even most games are very linear. You are in a maze, you have many choices, but only a certain series of choices will lead you to the exit.

I've been thinking about the idea that we are given free will from God. I agree we have free will, but I don't really know if it came from God since I don't really know if God exists. However, assuming God does exist, people say he has given us free will, yet he says that if we do not believe in him then we will end up in hell. How is this free will? The concept of "believe in me or else" is not giving us free will.

It would have been like telling slaves that "you had freedom, so long as you stay on this plantation and do what I say or get punished". Sure they are "free" to decide on their own to try and leave and get away, but the fear of punishment seems to interfere with that "freedom".

Doesn't the idea of God contradict free will? I mean, free will suggests having to make choice, and choice is the cause of a future event. Therefore, in order to believe in free will one have to assume that time is always and inevitably linear.
But it is not for God, he knows everything from the begining to the end.
Isn't free will the ability to change future outcome? Clearly not for Christians. They say we have choice to make but God already knows it. To me that makes as much sense as The Matrix (a total of 0). When Christians define free will, a game of semantics starts.
Personally, I believe that we all have free will, as has every form of conciousness. Where it came from? Same place life did.
One cannot think and not have free will. Self in its basic form requires it.
If you believe he can, can you explain? How do you bound someone's thinking?
It's different with prophecies, one can theoretically predict the potential future of society as a whole (sounds like Asimov's Foundation). God, however, is supposed to know everything, even every personal choice.

If you got through my message, and understood what I am trying to say (because I certainly didn't), please explain the Christian idea of free will in as simple language as you can.

And, I've always asked myself, does Christ have free will? He certainly knew the outcome of his actions...

It's funny you should mention the Matrix. I was just looking at their website, which, to me, is 100% clear.
You seem to define free will as an output based on input, one of the two choices I offered. Animals have "free will", but that free will is based on rules. Are we like animals, just more complicated? Is our "free will" a big formula?

Christian's view of free will is quite simple. God gave us free will. We can't understand how it works, just as we can't understand how God works.
God knows the future because we made it. We made choices (look at it like fast-forwarding the whole timeline) and He stands at the end of that line and is looking back. He already watched the movie, so He knows everything, but what He knows--is what we did, our choices.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
It's funny you should mention the Matrix. I was just looking at their website, which, to me, is 100% clear.
You seem to define free will as an output based on input, one of the two choices I offered. Animals have "free will", but that free will is based on rules. Are we like animals, just more complicated? Is our "free will" a big formula?

Christian's view of free will is quite simple. God gave us free will. We can't understand how it works, just as we can't understand how God works.
God knows the future because we made it. We made choices (look at it like fast-forwarding the whole timeline) and He stands at the end of that line and is looking back. He already watched the movie, so He knows everything, but what He knows--is what we did, our choices.

What do you mean that free will is based on rules? Free will is a big formula?!?!?!

I read your post and this is what I get: Free will is not output based on input, there is no such a thing as reason, cause, consequences, time doesn't flow in one direction.
I'm sorry, I'm not too clear. I have only one question for you; how does our free will differ from that of the animals?
Don't get me wrong. On intelligence level, there is no comparison between the two, but free will does not have to do anything with intelligence (we both agree there). So answer the question.

Christians often say in arguments that whatever is God's work a human cannot understand. That has happened before to me; I've been arguing and arguing, and the conclusion will always be "I don't know, only my God knows". Why do you argue then? You say that you don't know what free will is; why are you in a post where people are trying to define it?

And about the analogy, I liked it, and I've heard it before. If time can be fast-forwarded like that then we basically don't make any choices, we now are just living our own history. Is that what you believe in? That you could make only one choice because God already knows it? And although it is your choice, it is already a fact, not a choice?

This reminds me of when Bush and others keep saying that "our rights come from God and not from government". Assuming God exists, I would still believe our rights come more from government than from God. If you travel outside of America you will not have the same rights as you do in America...thats because different governments don't provide the same rights.

Does God give us the right to a fair and speedy trial or does that right come from the government? What about the right to freedom of speech and religion? The US government gives us religious freedom by not telling us what to believe in...if it was up to God we would not have this right. God's first Commandment would take away this right by saying "you shall have no othe God before me".

If our rights came from God wouldn't everyone have the right to vote? Its the government that gives Americans over 18 the right to vote. If Bush really believes everyone was given rights from God, then as the leader of this country he should have started a movement to ensure that people under the age of 18 are given back their "God given right" to vote that the government has taken away from them. Why does he allow government to hand out and restrict certain rights if he believes that our rights do not come from government?

I agree with you, dnamertz. Too often politicians try to back up their opinions with God. A wicked thing to do.

Orfey, how can time flow in two directions? Does that even make sense? What I was saying is: at every time a person makes a choice, it's like all the data in his head is evaluated and an appropriate choice is made. That choice depends solely on the data and not on the person who is making the choice. A formula so do speak.
I know animals do that. They are all the same, basically. Scare them, they will run. Give them food, they will eat it. A person, on the other hand, can choose not to do that. Advanced formula or free will?

In a sense, we are living the history, BUT we MADE that history. Do you see? it's like we made all the choices already (at least for God we did). WE made them, God just KNOWS them. I really don't see a problem with that.

Just a minor correction. The existance of god does not deny free will. However, the existance of an absolute god does. Polytheistic religions have gods that can control the lives of men, but they are also imperfect like man. They aren't really controlling the universe, but are just playing around in it. Kinda like a big cosmic sandbox.