What do you make of this :confused:



Professor sticks with comparison of Nazis, 9/11 victims
Thursday, February 10, 2005 Posted: 1:05 AM EST (0605 GMT)


Professor Ward Churchill is the author of a paper that compared 9/11 victims to a Nazi who planned for Jewish extermination.



BOULDER, Colorado (AP) -- A University of Colorado professor who likened September 11 victims to Nazis got a standing ovation when he told a campus audience of more than 1,000 people that "I'm not backing up an inch."

Ward Churchill, who had filed a lawsuit after the state university threatened to cancel his address, was interrupted several times by thunderous applause.

Churchill has resigned as chairman of the university's ethnic studies department. Gov. Bill Owens has called for Churchill to be fired, and the university's Board of Regents is investigating whether the tenured professor can be removed.

"I don't answer to Bill Owens. I do not answer to the Board of Regents in the way they think I do. The regents should do their job and let me do mine," Churchill said to thunderous clapping. "I'm not backing up an inch. I owe no one an apology."

In an essay, Churchill wrote that workers in the World Trade Center were the equivalent of "little Eichmanns," a reference to Adolf Eichmann, who ensured the smooth running of the Nazi system. Churchill also spoke of the "gallant sacrifices" of the "combat teams" that struck America.

The ethnic studies professor said Tuesday his essay was referring to "technocrats" who participate in what he calls repressive American policies around the world.

A longtime American Indian Movement activist, he said he is also culpable because his efforts to change the system haven't succeeded. "I could do more. I'm complicit. I'm not innocent," he said.

The Boulder Faculty Assembly, which represents professors at the Boulder campus, has said Churchill's comments were "controversial, offensive and odious" but supports his right to say them based on the principle of academic freedom.

During his 35-minute speech, Churchill said the essay was not referring to children, firefighters, janitors or people passing by the World Trade Center who were killed during the attacks.

The essay and follow-up book attracted little attention until Churchill was invited to speak last month at Hamilton College in Clinton, New York, which later canceled his talk out of security concerns.

University of Colorado officials cited those same concerns but backed off after Churchill filed a lawsuit earlier Tuesday asking a judge to force the school to let him speak.

The crowd Tuesday night was loud and orderly as Churchill spoke: "I do not work for the taxpayers of the state of Colorado. I do not work for Bill Owens. I work for you," he said.

About two dozen police officers were scattered inside and around the ballroom where the speech was given. Most of those attending supported Churchill.

"I've read some of Ward's work," said 26-year-old Vinita Laroia, an environmental studies major. "I think what he has to say is true and interesting. I wanted to hear his actual voice say what he's thinking."

The ACLU issued a statement defending Churchill's right to speak out and called on regents, legislators and the governor "to stop threatening Mr. Churchill's job because of the content of his opinions."

David Horowitz, a champion of conservative causes who has long accused American universities of overstocking their faculties with leftists, has said firing Churchill would violate his First Amendment rights and set a bad precedent.

He called instead for an inquiry into the university's hiring and promotion procedures to see how Churchill managed to rise to the chairmanship of the school's ethnic studies department. <end>



Here's the Link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/02/09/colorado.prof.ap/index.html

i heard the guy. and he made it clear as to what he meant. he wasnt talking about all of the victims, just the ones, as he puts it, use that money power to degrade other countries. i dont know about all of that, but i also dont believe that we were bombed because, as that jerk bush put it, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS !! we did something to those people. the average joe doenst know and dont want to know what. they believe EVERYTHING our govt says. im not saying that what they did was right, but i dont believe that we are innocent either.....EVERYBODY DONT BELIEVE THAT WE WERE RIGHT FOR GOING TO IRAQ.....AND IM ONE OF THEM !us going there is living proof that we take advantage of little helpless countries.......regardless of what saddam was doing. he wasnt and still isnt the worst dictator.....bush is a moneygrubbing asshole !

Originally posted by Dunkirk101
What do you make of this :confused:


It's no worse than some of the crap that gets spouted on this forum.

Originally posted by korg
i heard the guy. and he made it clear as to what he meant. he wasnt talking about all of the victims, just the ones, as he puts it, use that money power to degrade other countries. i dont know about all of that, but i also dont believe that we were bombed because, as that jerk bush put it, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS !! we did something to those people. the average joe doenst know and dont want to know what. they believe EVERYTHING our govt says. im not saying that what they did was right, but i dont believe that we are innocent either.....EVERYBODY DONT BELIEVE THAT WE WERE RIGHT FOR GOING TO IRAQ.....AND IM ONE OF THEM !us going there is living proof that we take advantage of little helpless countries.......regardless of what saddam was doing. he wasnt and still isnt the worst dictator.....bush is a moneygrubbing asshole ! WIth this post, i am better able to categorize you korg. Now i can read every post you make knowing its little more than a mindless, bush hating diatribe, no matter the subject title. Congratualations. Your counterparts are Shaman, Echo, Freestinker, and the likes. Good job.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
It's no worse than some of the crap that gets spouted on this forum. So what does that mean? You have no reaction to the professor comparing the 9/11 victims to a nazi?

Originally posted by HaVoK
You have no reaction to the professor comparing the 9/11 victims to a nazi?

I think the larger point that the professor was trying to get at was that the corporate higher-ups in the WTC would have to be considered a prime force in helping to insure the smooth running [hence the "Eichmann" reference] of the uber-conservative capitalist system itself --- a system whose policies were responsible, prior to the 9/11 attacks, for the deaths of over a million innocent Iraqis.....

.....still though, Churchill's correlation of Eichmann with the unfortunate WTC victims doesn't resonate that well with me.

I'd have far preferred to hear Churchill go before the entire nation and make a speech, drawing a direct line between the terror of the Nazis back then and the world's most proficient terrorists now, the REAL terrorists of this age;

.....the Rightwing political faction in Washington, who vote to spend trillions on a war machine whose primary purpose is intimidation, destruction and the protection of Corporate interests.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I think the larger point that the professor was trying to get at was that the corporate higher-ups in the WTC would have to be considered a prime force in helping to insure the smooth running [hence the "Eichmann" reference] of the uber-conservative capitalist system itself --- a system whose policies were responsible, prior to the 9/11 attacks, for the deaths of over a million innocent Iraqis.....

.....still though, Churchill's correlation of Eichmann with the unfortunate WTC victims doesn't resonate that well with me.

I'd have far preferred to hear Churchill go before the entire nation and make a speech, drawing a direct line between the terror of the Nazis back then and the world's most proficient terrorists now, the REAL terrorists of this age;

.....the Rightwing political faction in Washington, who vote to spend trillions on a war machine whose primary purpose is intimidation, destruction and the protection of Corporate interests. I dont need you to break it down for me. I know what he was getting at. Im just tired of chicken shit cowards talking the talk, with the constant Hitler/Nazi references when referring to their fellow citizens and now the victims of 9/11.

a lot of what ward said has been blown out of proportion by the right wing. you will have to find his actual speech or paper and read it. if i could remeber where it is i'd post a link. but i don't think what he said was that harsh.
i think his main point was that amerika is a big influence around the world not just militarily, but also economically. and those economic drives the force of oil, policy in the middle east to protect that oil, and hence don't be damned surprised that someone retaliates the best way they can. by slamming a jet into the WTC and shutting down wall street for a week thus making amerikan corporations loose one trillion dollars.
i think ward's speeches and papers are better thoroughly discussed over at indianz.com website in that forum.

Originally posted by Dunkirk101
What do you make of this :confused:
It's sickening. Take this self-righteous, all knowing asshole, Ward Churchill, for example. Here you have a man who enjoys the fruits of American labor, freedom of speech, and an American income, but yet compares his fellow Americans to the likes of Nazis working the giant corporatist machine that eventually causes their inevitable demise, but has character enough to exclude fireman and police offices because their chosen profession wasn't business. Brilliant. Face it, the man's a fucking tool...

While there might be some truth to the comparison he made when using VERY broad brush strokes, the fact that he made those comments should shock and appall most anyone who has ANY sense of loyalty and appreciation for what this country has provided us all. I don't think he should be fired - just labeled as an asshole by every major media outlet in this country.

It's people like this I just DON'T get. If they hate it here so much, then why not leave? I'll tell you why...because it's too good to leave, and they know it, but they'll NEVER admit it. Pathetic.

Face it, the man's a fucking tool... Heh...What ever Preat. All those "tools" opposing the status quo...

You reap what you sow. Understand? The US has lead the world in imperialist actions since its inception. The US has not gone a single year without being engaged in the violent repression of people around the world. The Cold War (aka WW3) was a turf war over fuedal estates. It is what produced such characters as Osama and the Taliban. The US funded terrorism so that they could resist a imperialist commie takeover. The genius government we got thought that even though they violently oppossed commie imperialism, they would embrace capitalistic imperialism. The same schmucks that wrote the foreign policy then are the same ones writing it now.

The Us deserved 9-11 and it deserves a whole lot more. The victims of 9-11(ie: tourist, janitors, etc etc) were innocent. The target of the terrorist (ie: America and the coporate interests that run it) were not. Osama said himself thet they dont hate freedom otherwise they wouldve attacked Sweden. Look at the plans they found for another terrorist attack - Prudential bank, the NYSE, another bank. These are the financial institutions that fund and motivate American imperialistic terrorism.

In our history the Us has muders more than 1000x's the number of people who died on 9-11. Shit weve already killed over 100,000 innocent Iraqis. So when you and Bush talk about terrorism all I think is "Kettle, meet pot. Pot this is kettle". My how the bully cries when someone hits back.

Lookie:
http://www.bendib.com/militarism/What-is-terrorism.jpg

Originally posted by Freethinker
I think the larger point that the professor was trying to get at was that the corporate higher-ups in the WTC would have to be considered a prime force in helping to insure the smooth running [hence the "Eichmann" reference] of the uber-conservative capitalist system itself

This is a lot more articulate than what he actually said. I don't agree with it, but you're being very generous to him with your superior interpretation.

For the lack of any other talent, Professor Churchill has taken the "shock" route to appear courageous when in fact it's just the opposite.

What does one do with a degree in Ethnic Studies? Professors in this department probably rant against segregation and then teach courses like "Black Literature".

I understand the distinction you're trying to make, 500, but I think your argument is futile.

You're logic excuses humanity. It's akin to someone getting picked on his entire life, snapping, putting makeup on, and killing everyone he knows because it's justifiable. I'm not going to give the terrorists a qualifier. If people like you and Freethinker want to do it, that's fine, but don't expect other Americans to jump on the sympathy bandwagon when it could've just as easily been your family in the Trade Towers. Fuck them, and if it comes between my lifestyle and theirs...guess what, I'm pickin' mine, and if I have to collect some rags in the meantime, then so be it.

Being a liberal, I'm sure you're readily able to place yourself in the shoes of another person while observing their plight as something horrific, but in doing so, you lose sight of your personal reality. (I.e. what affects you and your family) We're not going to change the way the western world does business, and the sooner you idealists accept this inevitability, the better off you'll be. When you accomplish this feat, you can contribute to making this country a better place, because you're not doin' it by fighting the system.

Originally posted by Brooks
What does one do with a degree in Ethnic Studies? Professors in this department probably rant against segregation and then teach courses like "Black Literature".
Brilliant. :)

1st of all im not a liberal dont assume who I am or what I believe.

2nd If you see no problem killing other people for the profit of corporations then you better get used to living in a police state and massive terrorist attacks.

3rd As Ive said before your a selfish asshole. Hence "you come first no matter what." God forbid we try to work with other people or at least not murder them for profit. sigh... You reap what you sow.

I remember a comparison I heard. Living in America is like living in a mobsters house. There a lot of nice stuff everywhere but you dont really want to know where it came from.

America is run on blood money.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
America is run on blood money.
Then leave, you self-righteous asswipe. Why would you want to keep company with "mobsters" anyway?

And btw, if you're not a liberal, then do me favor, and tell me what brand of communism have you decided to associate yourself with? Whatever it is, I'm sure it's in keeping with your narrow perspective, and tomfool arguments.

ok all ya right winger flag wearers. what about the estimated 10,000 children who died every year from the sanctions? amerika goes around shoving it's way of thinking down the throats of an incredible amount of people world wide. militarily, and economically. and if these people don't want it, and no one will listen to them and things don't change no matter what else they do, what should they do? kiss ass and say it's ok? people will do what they have to to fight back. it seems that the only way to keep amerika off yer back is to make a nuke.

Originally posted by HaVoK
WIth this post, i am better able to categorize you korg. Now i can read every post you make knowing its little more than a mindless, bush hating diatribe, no matter the subject title. Congratualations. Your counterparts are Shaman, Echo, Freestinker, and the likes. Good job. tell me why havok ! what did i say that is so wrong ? that we dont know what our govt is doing in other countries ? so i guess you do....huh ? give me a break. and you are on the complete opposite side of what i believe, which makes you right ? give me a break

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Then leave, you self-righteous asswipe.

the WHOLE WORLD is run on blood money. leaving the u.s. does not mean leaving "the system" (much as using that word makes me feel like my mother and her generation of old school commies). whatever part of the world someone goes to, it is run the same way. hierarchy, and exploitation, and inequality are facts of life no matter which country someone lives in. and you either have to be on the giving or receiving end of it, and living in america, we happen to be in charge. we are a large imperialist country, and that is the role we play in this world. and it is wrong. of course its not ok for terrorists to kill us, but its also not ok for us to kill people in the middle east. and though there is no justification for 9/11, if you look at simple cause and effect you can understand why it happened. when one culture, meaning ours, western culture, dominates the world it angers everyone else, and rightfully so. they dont hate our freedom, they hate that we are taking theirs away.

this brings up another really important issue, about our cultural values of right and wrong. we always say that staying neutral has no value, good or bad. but I'm going to say that standing by and letting the world run in a way that is wrong, and letting people be exploited, and simply being another cog in the wheel is completely immoral. in my mind, from my perspective, everyday people qho do nothing to change the world around them are doing something very very wrong. thats what this guy means. the people who died in the world trade center weren't going out and killing people, they were standing by while numerous injustices took place and doing nothing. they are more like the average german citizens who simply didn't protest against hitler and continued to live their lives. in my mind atleast, nothing justifies this behaviour. in my mind, to be a good, moral human being you can't just sit by complacently and let our world run the way it is now. and no matter what we may say to the contrary, out actions prove that our cilture highly values this complacency.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
leaving the u.s. does not mean leaving "the system".

True. If i thought by leaving it would end the imperialist agenda of the US, that it would inhibit the global slaughter of any person around the world or any country who gets in the way of US Corporate profits, i'd leave today.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
you either have to be on the giving or receiving end of it, and living in america, we happen to be in charge. we are a large imperialist country, and that is the role we play in this world.

True.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
and it is wrong. of course its not ok for terrorists to kill us, but its also not ok for us to kill people in the middle east.

Agree 100%.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
and though there is no justification for 9/11, if you look at simple cause and effect you can understand why it happened.

True.

You can.

Unless you happen to be a mindless piece of human offal like Havok, you can readily understand it.


Originally posted by WhammyBar
when one culture, meaning ours, western culture, dominates the world it angers everyone else, and rightfully so. they dont hate our freedom, they hate that we are taking theirs away.

I wish that every self-deluded **My-country-Right-or-wrong** rightwinger in America could comprehend that one simple fact.

Originally posted by Freethinker
True. If i thought by leaving it would end the imperialist agenda of the US, that it would inhibit the global slaughter of any person around the world or any country who gets in the way of US Corporate profits, i'd leave today.
I'm sorry, FT, but this sends the needle on my bullshit detector well into the red range. You'd NEVER leave, and that's a fact. Hell, I can't say I blame you, because, like me, you probably live a pretty good life here, and because of it, you'd never entertain the idea of seriously packing your bags when it's fairly obvious you're content with just running your mouth.

My question to you people is when are you going to accept the reality that THIS IS HOW WE DO BUSINESS IN THE WEST, and NOTHING you do or say IS EVER going to change that. You can piss and moan about imperialism all you want, but you and I both know that our ultimate goal isn't to kill people; it's to make money, PERIOD. People can either jump on the bandwagon, or get swept under the carpet in the process, but really, it's THEIR choice. Our country has been exploited since its inception by people who desire to come here with the intent of making a better life for themselves, and that hasn't changed, so get with the program, or wrap your head in a towel, grab an AK-47, and fight for the other side.

Dumbass comment made by PC: It's people like this I just DON'T get. If they hate it here so much, then why not leave? I'll tell you why...because it's too good to leave, and they know it, but they'll NEVER admit it. Pathetic.

Well, for one, your kind of people bitches and nags the people that wanna leave to leave, calling them cowards and such, and when they do leave, you still insult and call them traitors. Honestly, with the way you act PC, it seems like you don't want them to leave, becuase if they did, you would have no one to ridicule and feel superior to.

Dumbass comment #2: if you're not a liberal, then do me favor, and tell me what brand of communism have you decided to associate yourself with? Whatever it is, I'm sure it's in keeping with your narrow perspective, and tomfool.

The needle on the dumbass o' metre broke long before this comment was entered by you PC, try not to beat a dead horse. If any one has a narrow perspective, it's you. Those people that don't have the same view as you haven't turned into communists. Communism blows mainly because of the fact it will never work. The people you call communists are indeed not. please try to wrap your mind around it. It shouldn't be too hard, you did wrap your mind around blind obedience for America after all.

Originally posted by ivan
ok all ya right winger flag wearers. what about the estimated 10,000 children who died every year from the sanctions? amerika goes around shoving it's way of thinking down the throats of an incredible amount of people world wide. militarily, and economically. and if these people don't want it, and no one will listen to them and things don't change no matter what else they do, what should they do? kiss ass and say it's ok? people will do what they have to to fight back. it seems that the only way to keep amerika off yer back is to make a nuke.

those were UN sanctions genius. The same UN who implemented the oil for food program to ensure that didn't happen then proceeded to milk it for all it was worth as Sadaam spent all of the money he got for the oil on weapons and palaces instead of on food and medicine. How you can have the balls to say the US was behind it all shows just how insane with hatred towards us you are. go look up oil for food scandal before you say stupid shit. see which governments got paid. A funny thing is, the governments most vigorously opposed to the war in Iraq happen to be the same ones who made billions off of oil for food scandal.

Originally posted by CX returns
Dumbass comment made by PC: It's people like this I just DON'T get. If they hate it here so much, then why not leave? I'll tell you why...because it's too good to leave, and they know it, but they'll NEVER admit it. Pathetic.

Well, for one, your kind of people bitches and nags the people that wanna leave to leave, calling them cowards and such, and when they do leave, you still insult and call them traitors. Honestly, with the way you act PC, it seems like you don't want them to leave, becuase if they did, you would have no one to ridicule and feel superior to.

Dumbass comment #2: if you're not a liberal, then do me favor, and tell me what brand of communism have you decided to associate yourself with? Whatever it is, I'm sure it's in keeping with your narrow perspective, and tomfool.

The needle on the dumbass o' metre broke long before this comment was entered by you PC, try not to beat a dead horse. If any one has a narrow perspective, it's you. Those people that don't have the same view as you haven't turned into communists. Communism blows mainly because of the fact it will never work. The people you call communists are indeed not. please try to wrap your mind around it. It shouldn't be too hard, you did wrap your mind around blind obedience for America after all.
First off, I haven't the slightest fucking clue who PC is, but I guess it's of no consequence because it's clearly obvious you know shit about me, or my political stance. Secondly, if those asswipes left, I CERTAINLY wouldn't refer to them as traitors, I'd praise them for exercising their right to be vocal while actually having the BALLS enough to do something about it. After all, they could move to Canada, which is nothing more than a cold Honduras without the United States to prop up its bullshit economy. Congrats, Knookers - you can have our assholes, too.

Btw, a general feeling of superiority is typically the liberal’s stock in trade, not the republicans, and if you could differentiate your head from your ass, then this wouldn't be a mystery. Thirdly, I didn't mean to infer that anyone who didn't have conservative leanings was a "communist", and if you had more than a third graders reading comprehension, you'd of realized that 500 was extreme in nature, and proclaimed he didn’t associate with any American, political line of thinking, so I painted him as a commie. Big deal, moron – move on.

Btw, a general feeling of superiority is typically the liberal’s stock in trade, not the republicans, and if you could differentiate your head from your ass, then this wouldn't be a mystery. Thirdly, I didn't mean to infer that anyone who didn't have conservative leanings was a "communist", and if you had more than a third graders reading comprehension, you'd of realized that 500 was extreme in nature, and proclaimed he didn’t associate with any American, political line of thinking, so I painted him as a commie. Big deal, moron – move on.

First off, i saw PC in your name shit, so i'd decided to fuck around a bit and see if you could recognize your own post, or if you did that shit on a rant. Now we know. I know the difference btw my ass and my head. My head has a brain whereas me ass is filled with crap and shit vapour (insert witty comeback here). As for the third grade reading comprehension, i scan what people say, as most of what you spout from your computer could seriously dumb down anyone who reads em in full detail. (insert your insult here).

"After all, they could move to Canada, which is nothing more than a cold Honduras without the United States to prop up its bullshit economy."

Don't know about the Honduras part, but yea we got a crap economy, but its on the rise thanks to the sagging american dollar (that wasn't meant to offend anyone).

Gooooooooooo....Whammy!

Hes a quote for you. Its a bit shorter than what you wrote:

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."
— Paulo Freire, "Pedagogy of the Oppressed"

Praet - your a dumbass for calling me commie.

Travh - The OFF was saddam with dirty business men stealing possibly $4.4 billion (smuggling oil is an entirely independant venture). The Oil for food scandel didnt STEAL $8.9 billion dollars of the Iraqis money. That was the US government and the US government alone.

Canada = honduras? Last time I checked we didnt train terrorist death squads to invade canada and prop up a murderous dictator. Nor do I see the US propping up their economy. Someones been listening to a little to much Coulter.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Praet - your a dumbass for calling me commie.
Okay, me labeling you a commie was a cheap shot, but you've already stated that you're not a liberal, and I know you're not a libertarian, so please, tell me...what's your political affiliation? (And please don't tell me that you're the sensitive artist type, who's opposed to labels - it's such a cliche')

Think about this: you like social programs, hate corporations, loath the wealthy, believe in taxation, and believe in isolationism, but you're no liberal. Dude, if the shoe fits...

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Nor do I see the US propping up their economy.
Are you KIDDING ME!?!?!?!? Canada would hardly have an industry if it weren't for us consuming their timber, agricultural products, steel, oil, and EMPLOYING their citizens through American firms located THERE and here. Also, don't forget, we're the consumers who actually BUY their products.

98poundweakling, you are completly insane. the USis not mentioned in the OFF scandal.. you are one stupid dumbass

Originally posted by The Praetorian
[B

Btw, a general feeling of superiority is typically the liberal’s stock in trade, not the republicans,. [/B] that is a fuckin lie prae !!! all you guys do is tell people to leave, who the fuck made you boss of anything ? its the republicans that have that"we are great and you guys are dumbasses" attitude. man, at least be a man about shit !@!!! how in the hell do you come with that its the dems.....you"re fuckin unreal......AT LEAST BE A MAN ABOUT THE SHIT !!!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
, and if you had more than a third graders reading comprehension, Big deal, moron – move on. this is a prime fuckin example.....no one insults another persons education MORE THAN YOU !!!!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I'm sorry, FT, but this sends the needle on my bullshit detector well into the red range. You'd NEVER leave, and that's a fact. Hell, I can't say I blame you, because, like me, you probably live a pretty good life here, and because of it, you'd never entertain the idea of seriously packing your bags when it's fairly obvious you're content with just running your mouth.

what makes this country what it is, is that people can have differing opinions, WITHOUT HAVING TO BE TOLD TO GET OUT !!.....you're an insulting fuck sometimes, you know that !

i love hearing that people agree with me. :D
500lb: my mom's searching around her office for that book, i have paulo freires other book sitting on my desk waiting its turn to be read.

Originally posted by The Praetorian

My question to you people is when are you going to accept the reality that THIS IS HOW WE DO BUSINESS IN THE WEST, and NOTHING you do or say IS EVER going to change that. You can piss and moan about imperialism all you want, but you and I both know that our ultimate goal isn't to kill people; it's to make money, PERIOD.


just because we are killing people in order to make money dopes not make it ok. yes, money is the end goal. and yes, i have a prblem with that in itself, but killing people in order to make money is possibly the most disgusting thing i can think of for a human being to do. i also think the ultimate goal is to mantain power, but in this case, money is power, so thats not really the point.

my answer to your question is that i wont;. when i truly think something is wrong i will do everything i possiiibly can to make it right again. i have come to the conclusion that the way most of the people in this world live is wrong. when it is up to me, i will not live this lifestyle anymore. i plan on being a part of some sort of communal living set up ASAP, and I'm going to do my best to spend my life helping those around me who need it. I think that by simply living the way I thnk is just and righht I am doing my part to make the world a better place. I think anyone who does not become a living embodiment of their ideals, whatever they may be, is a coward, and a wimp, and intellectually dishonest. anybody whp espouses a certain way of living, a certain attitude about how the world should be, and does not make their best effort to live in a way that fits in with that is a hypocrite. I have fogured out what I beleive to be wrong with the world, and I am going to do everything i possibly can to fix it. if everyone in trhe world reevaluated their priorities and really took a good look at the world, instead of just accepting things the way they are, then maybe things would be better. complacency and accpetance lead to a bad world, questioing and constant mending of what need to be fixed lead to a good one. the moment people stop asking questions is the moment the human race is destined to self destruct.

Originally posted by korg
that is a fuckin lie prae !!! all you guys do is tell people to leave, who the fuck made you boss of anything ? its the republicans that have that"we are great and you guys are dumbasses" attitude. man, at least be a man about shit !@!!! how in the hell do you come with that its the dems.....you"re fuckin unreal......AT LEAST BE A MAN ABOUT THE SHIT !!!
That's simply not true, Korg. The liberals have always touted themselves as being smarter than the republicans. You can talk about "attitudes" all you want, but the fact remains - they're the ones who blatantly insult us for being narrow sighted, mean spirited, intellectually inferior, and ethnocentric. On the surface, their arguments may appear as if they have some depth, but in reality, they're patently false.

if you need any proof of what he said just look at any of Echo2's posts. She is clearly an idiot but insists anyone who agrees with George Bush is retarded

Originally posted by korg
this is a prime fuckin example.....no one insults another persons education MORE THAN YOU !!!!
And if certain people would: 1) READ, 2) assimilate the data, 3) Form a well rounded opinion, and 4) Post a good question or valid point, then I wouldn't have much of a reason to insult their intellect, would I? It’s a fairly logical and straightforward process.

Originally posted by korg
you're an insulting fuck sometimes, you know that !
Well everyone, this seems to be a shining example of Korgs dramatic irony.

Classic.

Originally posted by HaVoK
So what does that mean? You have no reaction to the professor comparing the 9/11 victims to a nazi?

My reaction is that his idiotic diatribe is as completely retarded as the crap that gets posted here all of the time. One becomes immune to it. And I think the posts that followed mine proved my point quite well.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
the WHOLE WORLD is run on blood money. leaving the u.s. does not mean leaving "the system" (much as using that word makes me feel like my mother and her generation of old school commies). whatever part of the world someone goes to, it is run the same way. hierarchy, and exploitation, and inequality are facts of life no matter which country someone lives in. [B]

This whole exploitation things just baffles me. If someone sells me a TV set and makes a profit, I've been exploited? No I haven't, I'm know damn well they're making a profit and I accept my role in that transaction because I'm getting something of value in return. People get paid a wage by their employer, and obviously the employer gets more value from the employee than the employee gets in wages, otherwise the company couldn't make a profit. Is that exploitation? No, everyone knows damn well what the deal is and they enter into the deal willingly. Don't misunderstand me, I know damn well exploitation occurs. But there is no zero sum calculation here - every transaction does not have a "winner" and a "loser."

Originally posted by WhammyBar
[B] they dont hate our freedom, they hate that we are taking theirs away.

What they hate is that we're taking away their freedom to impose their will upon others. Is our will better? Not necessarily, but don't pretend that the terrorists are freedom-loving idealists, either.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Is our will better? Not necessarily, but don't pretend that the terrorists are freedom-loving idealists, either.
Amen.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
This whole exploitation things just baffles me. If someone sells me a TV set and makes a profit, I've been exploited? No I haven't, I'm know damn well they're making a profit and I accept my role in that transaction because I'm getting something of value in return. People get paid a wage by their employer, and obviously the employer gets more value from the employee than the employee gets in wages, otherwise the company couldn't make a profit. Is that exploitation? No, everyone knows damn well what the deal is and they enter into the deal willingly. Don't misunderstand me, I know damn well exploitation occurs. But there is no zero sum calculation here - every transaction does not have a "winner" and a "loser."
A simple point the liberals here can't grasp, I guess.

some people are so convinced the US is evil that anyone that opposes the US must be right. It has played itself out over and over on this board. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", and its clear the US government is the enemy of a good number of allforums members. they can deny it all they want, but with such phrases as "death to the occupiers", encouraging Ameican soldiers to frag their officers as a way to end the war, and rooting on North Korea to stand up to the bully neocons, its clear that people such as 98lb weakling and Mr Shaman, the people who provided the 3 examples, are my enemy, and may as well be in line with Al queada when it comes to allegiance

Originally posted by LionelHutz
My reaction is that his idiotic diatribe is as completely retarded as the crap that gets posted here all of the time. One becomes immune to it. And I think the posts that followed mine proved my point quite well. lol. I should have known there was a perfectly good explaination, considering the source. My bad, Sir Lionel.

Originally posted by Travh20
its clear the US government is the enemy of a good number of allforums members. they can deny it all they want, but with such phrases as "death to the occupiers",

Could you please quote the AllForums member who is urging --"death to the occupiers"-- in reference to the US...?

Originally posted by Travh20
and rooting on North Korea to stand up to the bully neocons

Could you please quote the AllForums member who is rooting on North Korea to stand up to the bully neocons.....??

Thanks.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Could you please quote the AllForums member who is urging --"death to the occupiers"-- in reference to the US...?



Could you please quote the AllForums member who is rooting on North Korea to stand up to the bully neocons.....??

Thanks.
You're kidding, right?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You're kidding, right?

I don't know Prae, I think those are valid questions...

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You're kidding, right?

No, I'm not.

I've been reading these boards pretty regularly, and I have never heard anyone here from either side making either of the two comments that have been alleged.

At least in the last ('they're rooting on North Korea!) instance, (i am confident that) i know what Trav is refering to; but he is --as he is wont to do-- purposely misconstruing what was said.

Mr Shaman began a thread by posting a newspaper article about N Korea.......but Shaman did not in any way, shape, form of fashion "root on" N Korea. Not in ANY sense of the word. And I am not aware of anyone else even instigating a discussionof N Korea.

Hence, Trav is flat out lying on that particular charge..........and I just wanted to expose that fact for all to see.

Ahhh, I feel all tingly down there. Travh got a nickname for me...
;)

Travh20.........???

Could you please quote the AllForums member who is urging --"death to the occupiers"-- in reference to the US...?



Could you please quote the AllForums member who is rooting on North Korea to stand up to the bully neocons.....??

Thanks.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
This whole exploitation things just baffles me. If someone sells me a TV set and makes a profit, I've been exploited? No I haven't, I'm know damn well they're making a profit and I accept my role in that transaction because I'm getting something of value in return. People get paid a wage by their employer, and obviously the employer gets more value from the employee than the employee gets in wages, otherwise the company couldn't make a profit. Is that exploitation? No, everyone knows damn well what the deal is and they enter into the deal willingly. Don't misunderstand me, I know damn well exploitation occurs. But there is no zero sum calculation here - every transaction does not have a "winner" and a "loser."



What they hate is that we're taking away their freedom to impose their will upon others. Is our will better? Not necessarily, but don't pretend that the terrorists are freedom-loving idealists, either.


look at the exploitation thing this way: with capitalism, someone has to end up on the bottom. its inevitable. that bottom is not a humane place to be, plain and simple. if your moral consious tells you that you can stand by and be ok with a system which needs a large group of people to be put in a terrible situation in order for it to function, then fine. mine does't. I think one of the things which largely distinguishes human beings from othere animals is our capacity for empathy for others. as a society, we are not doing a very gpod job demonstarting that right now.


no, the terrorists are nto freedom loving idealists. but thepopulation they are drawn from are victims of our countrys actions. we have a hufe amount of control over counries through our economic actions, and many of those countries are populated largely by impoverished muslims. this is the group of people from which the terrorists are drawn, and we are doing nothing to help them. I'm not saying the terrorits are doing something positive. I am saying that terrorism is an extreme version of a common and explanable reaction amongst their peer group. of course young poor muslims from the middle east hate us. that doesn't make violence ok, but we can see why its done. now we have to stop actions that put people in such a bad situation that they some willing to attack us out of desperation.

OK here is the link to 98lbweakiling's statement, and it wasnt death to the occupiers, it was death to the crusaders, asfter a long statement about how evil the US military is

the post (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10111)

its about the 7th post down.

and here is shaman all exicted that someone is trying to stand up to the evil "neocons", its not the democratic party, its not the american masses, its non other then our friend Kim Jong Il, hero of the North Korean people who has the guyts to stand up to the evil neo cons! he will show them!


the post (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10250)

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Well everyone, this seems to be a shining example of Korgs dramatic irony.

Classic. hey, i dont count, i admit to being anal.

Here is a link to the article that he wrote.
www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html

Originally posted by WhammyBar
look at the exploitation thing this way: with capitalism, someone has to end up on the bottom. its inevitable. that bottom is not a humane place to be, plain and simple. if your moral consious tells you that you can stand by and be ok with a system which needs a large group of people to be put in a terrible situation in order for it to function, then fine. mine does't.

I like the little bit of moral superiority you tossed in there. Nice. Someone does not have to end up on the bottom in capitalism, although obviously people do. But there's no reason it has to end up that way any more than there's a reason communism has to end up as a brutal dictatorship. Yeah, that's the usual result, but it doesn't have to be that way. And is there a perfect system? For instance, in your ideal commune that you join in the future, human nature dictates that there will be at least one lazy person that gets off doing less work than everyone else. That person will be "winning" and you would be "losing." And out of curiosity, what happens to really lazy people or those that take advantage of the system in a commune? Does everyone kick in to cover their work or are they cast out?

Originally posted by WhammyBar
now we have to stop actions that put people in such a bad situation that they some willing to attack us out of desperation.

Well, if supporting dictatorships is bad, and removing dictatorships is bad, then what are we to do? Just send money?

communism means everyone sits on the bottom. its easier for everyone to be equal if everyones life sucks

Youre telling me you couldnt live comfortably on $30,000 a year?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104688.html

Yeah youre right its much better when 1% of the population owns 80% of everything. Thats a much better situation.

"death to the occupiers" I did and proudly. People should support these brave Iraqis defending their homes against foreign invasion.

I like the little bit of moral superiority you tossed in there. Hey dont get cynical if youre a selfish bastard. Just admit it.

Well, if supporting dictatorships is bad, and removing dictatorships is bad, then what are we to do? Just send money? How about not supporting the dictatorship in the first place...

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
--Gloria Steinman

Does everyone kick in to cover their work or are they cast out?
You should look at the Spanish civil war. Free stores had food constantly. No one starved, unlike the fascist statist side.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Youre telling me you couldnt live comfortably on $30,000 a year?
Who the hell could? I couldn't live off of that amount of money if I tried. I can barely make it on 60 and I live by myself with one car, a cell phone, a computer, three credit cards, and a small dog.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Yeah youre right its much better when 1% of the population owns 80% of everything. Thats a much better situation.
And me labeling you a commie was inappropriate...how?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
I did and proudly. People should support these brave Iraqis defending their homes against foreign invasion.
What homes? Are you referring to their shanties or huts? "Brave Iraqis"???...Jesus, you're a deluded fool.

The brave Iraqis are the ones who decided to vote, not the ones who hide out in clandestine clothing waiting for soldiers to turn their backs so they can put a bullet in it. Those asswipes aren't brave at all - they're cowards, and if I caught one alive, I'd endorse using a new series of tortures to extract any information we need. We know enough about human anatomy to keep someone alive for months before ending it, so I'd give our soldiers carte blanche to do their job, find the enemy, smoke out their sympathizers, seize their money, and kill them all.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Hey dont get cynical if youre a selfish bastard. Just admit it.
And who's cynical here???

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" --Gloria Steinman
And I would expect nothing less than a quote from Gloria Steinman from you.

98lbweakling, would you consider going to iraq to join the brave iraqi resistance? if so, I would consider joining our military so I could get a shot at you sorry ass.

they're cowards, and if I caught one alive, I'd endorse using a new series of tortures to extract any information we need. We know enough about human anatomy to keep someone alive for months before ending it, so I'd give our soldiers carte blanche to do their job, find the enemy, smoke out their sympathizers, seize their money, and kill them all.
Nice to see not only do you admit you have no problem with Abu G but fully endorse and would like to participate in it. So I guess it would be OK for Iraqis to torture and rape American soilders then right? Shit I guess beheading was mild then. They should keep the soilders they capture alive and torture them for fun right?

The American Army are the cowards. Bombing people from 2,000 feet up. "Oh it takes so much courage to press a button" Especially when your militray spends more than all other coutries combined on military spending and their still losing the war. And now our chickenshit soilders are gonna start hiding behind robots. God forbid we be honorable and actually risk something while attempting to commit mass murder.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two Years After the Fall of Saddam, the Resistance Controls All Major Roads into Baghdad
http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick02122005.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

They are not cowards for hiding. They are smart and they are beating us. I hope when the time comes for you to fight an overwhelming force equipped with 50,000x's more technological equipment youll go stnad out in the middle of a field and tell them to "bring it on..." idiot.

98lbweakling, would you consider going to iraq to join the brave iraqi resistance? Why sould I do this? I dont live in Iraq. These are Iraqi partriots I have no business in their matter except for informing the US cannon fodder whats really going on. Youre so sweet Trav. How many women and children did you kill in the military again?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Nice to see not only do you admit you have no problem with Abu G but fully endorse and would like to participate in it. So I guess it would be OK for Iraqis to torture and rape American soilders then right? Shit I guess beheading was mild then. They should keep the soilders they capture alive and torture them for fun right?

The American Army are the cowards. Bombing people from 2,000 feet up. "Oh it takes so much courage to press a button" Especially when your militray spends more than all other coutries combined on military spending and their still losing the war. And now our chickenshit soilders are gonna start hiding behind robots. God forbid we be honorable and actually risk something while attempting to commit mass murder.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two Years After the Fall of Saddam, the Resistance Controls All Major Roads into Baghdad
http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick02122005.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

They are not cowards for hiding. They are smart and they are beating us. I hope when the time comes for you to fight an overwhelming force equipped with 50,000x's more technological equipment youll go stnad out in the middle of a field and tell them to "bring it on..." idiot.

Why sould I do this? I dont live in Iraq. These are Iraqi partriots I have no business in their matter except for informing the US cannon fodder whats really going on. Youre so sweet Trav. How many women and children did you kill in the military again? if he killed any i bet it was necessary. i know many vets and there not born killers or anything like that. you really need to stop knocking our vets. he was out there getting shot at and stuff all to protect your pansy *ss. bet you wouldnt do it for him either. coward.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Hey dont get cynical if youre a selfish bastard. Just admit it.

You wanting a system that takes money from people and gives it to you doesn't make you a selfish bastard? Please. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla

The American Army are the cowards. Bombing people from 2,000 feet up. "Oh it takes so much courage to press a button" Especially when your militray spends more than all other coutries combined on military spending and their still losing the war. And now our chickenshit soilders are gonna start hiding behind robots. God forbid we be honorable and actually risk something while attempting to commit mass murder. You dont even know how ignorant you are. Tell me, have you ever been involved in a fistfight? If so, did you fight only hard enough to win the fight, or did you fight to win and not get hurt in the process?

What gives you the right to call anyone a coward? Have you ever fought for something you believed in? Been in the military? I believe you're the coward. Hiding behind a keyboard, making statements about men and women who are dying to protect your freedom of speech. Yet you use it to bash them, and call on the enemy fighters to torture them mercilessly if captured.

for as much as i hate this war, and that jerk bush for starting it, i have NOTHING , but the utmost respect for the soldiers answering the call. they are not cowards, cowards run, they answered with their lives. these guys didnt , and still dont know if they are coming home to their families. i hate to say this, but i dont think that what went on in abu garib, was the worst thing. this is war, and most of our guys are young , and angry. we're asking them to fight a war, and be diplomatic . that has to be some hard shit to do when you're being shot at. leave the diplomacy to the higher ups. you can not turn this shit on and off. the same things were done to the vietnam vets when they returned home.....you cant turn it on and off at will. most of these guys will need some sort of therapy when they get home, because its just not natural to see that much death, and have it not affect you !

Ok . Theyre not cowards, but neither are the Iraqi patriots (<---not the terrorists using bombs to kill innocents).

Just suckers and psychos.

And lets not forget Americans private mercenary army whose presence is only rivaled by the British. You know like the four guys who got what was coming to them in Falluja (which was then used as an excuse to make an "example" of the city by reducing it to rubble).

Both sides have terrorists. The US's are just more well funded with much better PR.

Bullys always whine when someone stands up to them and hits back.

They scream about how America was attacked but do not take into consideration WHY we were attacked. We've been killing innocent people around the world since our inseption. We do what we want, when we want, where we want, and we don't give a damn about the indigonous peoples or governemnts.

"They hit us because they hate freedom" is one of the biggest lies ever pulled on the American people. They hit us because they were tired of being walked on, exploited, and used.

Originally posted by HaVoK
making statements about men and women who are dying to protect your freedom of speech. Yet you use it to bash them, (our soldiers) and call on the enemy fighters to torture them mercilessly if captured.

I can't figure out if you're stupid or just incredibly dishonest.

It's one or the other, because the point that 500lbguerilla was making back there was the virtual opposite of what you have characterized it as being.....

....he was NOT urging anyone to torture our soldiers, he was pointing out that since Praetorian staunchly approves of the U.S.'s use of merciless torture, ALL forms of torture with no holds barred, on any person or persons we capture, it leads to the conclusion that he must approve of their side doing the same to OUR soldiers.

He put it in the form of a question to Prae, and the inference was obvious.

Originally posted by Echo2
Bullys always whine when someone stands up to them and hits back.

They scream about how America was attacked but do not take into consideration WHY we were attacked. We've been killing innocent people around the world since our inseption. We do what we want, when we want, where we want, and we don't give a damn about the indigonous peoples or governemnts.

"They hit us because they hate freedom" is one of the biggest lies ever pulled on the American people. They hit us because they were tired of being walked on, exploited, and used. i strongly agree, and i like ward churchill

Originally posted by rubicon
Here is a link to the article that he wrote.
www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html


i think he summed it up pretty damn good if you ask me. the right wingers blew everything he said out of proportion to suit their own agenda.

i think he summed it up pretty damn good if you ask me. the right wingers blew everything he said out of proportion to suit their own agenda.
Oh no they never do that...
It's one or the other, because the point that 500lbguerilla was making back there was the virtual opposite of what you have characterized it as being.....

Dissent is not the highest form of patriotism, sacrifice is. Sacrifice of time, comfort, opportunities and even your life. Simply using the freedoms given to you by the sacrifice of others is not brave or patriotic.-Travh2O-Allforums voice of reason
havok and Trav - Dissent requires sacrifice. To defy the government means to risk losing everything. They have Trillions of dollars, Hundreds of thousands of troops and police and tehy readily take what they want when they want. People sacrifice much in the name of dissent including their "time, comfort, opportunities and even [their] life". Get a clue you worthless automatons

Originally posted by Freethinker
I can't figure out if you're stupid or just incredibly dishonest.

It's one or the other, because the point that 500lbguerilla was making back there was the virtual opposite of what you have characterized it as being.....

....he was NOT urging anyone to torture our soldiers, he was pointing out that since Praetorian staunchly approves of the U.S.'s use of merciless torture, ALL forms of torture with no holds barred, on any person or persons we capture, it leads to the conclusion that he must approve of their side doing the same to OUR soldiers.

He put it in the form of a question to Prae, and the inference was obvious.
You're absolutely right, FT, he did, and to that I say - fine, let 'em torture our boys, but under ONE condition: we stop fighting this war politically, and start killing prisoners. Trust me, if they wanted to make this a bloody war, we could just about turn the Tigress and Euphrates red, and it wouldn't be our blood that did it. If we decided to be agressive, what other reality would exist beyond a bunch of rags looking to find reverse in a soviet tank? That's right...a bunch of dead rags in a smoking tank.

That's right...a bunch of dead rags in a smoking tank. Dont forget the smouldering women and children to the side you racist fuck.

Good point, for they've been known to carry arms as well, and if they're standing next to the tank, then fuck 'em - they can die, too, for all I care.

So then you admit that the WTCs were a fair target. Thanks.

I'm sorry, but I thought that happened BEFORE we waged war in Iraq, and don't give me any shit about what happened in '91 because certain Kuwaitis might have difficulty swallowing your piss poor recollection of history with regards to military aggression for the pursuit of oil, fuckstick.

Well given that Iraq had absolutly nothing to do with 9-11 I can only assume you're an idiot. My point was that you said women and children are fair game.

If this discussion degenerates any further this thread will be closed. Moderate your language guys, please.

Does that include refering to human beings as RAGS?

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Does that include refering to human beings as RAGS?

It might, but I was specifically referring to the name-calling and over-use of certain vulgar terms. If you guys want to have a spirited debate, great, but when the discussion degenerates into calling each other "racist fuck" and "fuckstick", it's gone beyond spirited debate. This is a forum for civilized debate, not a barroom.

There is no difference between "fuckstick" and "rags". Both terms are meant to dehumanize. Therefore when I see something like "rags" I respond in like. So I would like to suggest that If certain words are off limits because the degenerate discussion racist terms should be included (obviously not in a discussion format, but the name calling one.)

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Well given that Iraq had absolutly nothing to do with 9-11 I can only assume you're an idiot. My point was that you said women and children are fair game.
Okay, moron, you were the one who compared the two, not me. I was referring to THEIR aggression being met with our aggression, and that's an apples to apples comparison as far as I'm concerned. We waged war on terrorism, and Saddam paid the widows of suicide bombers, meaning thusly - he was a f'ing terrorist. He supported it, endorsed it, and stamped it with national approval. He ethnically cleansed regions of his own population, while keeping a straight face. He violated NUMEROUS UN treaties, and wasn't held accountable for obvious reasons. This is entirely a separate argument, and one I'm not going to waste my time debating when you lost the battle before it even began.

As for the women and children quip...if they're armed, then yes, they're targets, and in all honesty, they should be. They can pull a trigger, too, but I suppose you feel for 'em because you want us dead, as well.

And Vile, duly noted...

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
There is no difference between "fuckstick" and "rags". Both terms are meant to dehumanize. Therefore when I see something like "rags" I respond in like. So I would like to suggest that If certain words are off limits because the degenerate discussion racist terms should be included (obviously not in a discussion format, but the name calling one.)

I agree with you that "rags" and "fuckstick" are equally offensive, but it's not the degree of offense that I was referring to. Moderating these forums can be quite challenging at times. I have no desire to interrupt any discussion, but there are times when the discussion degenerates into a free-for-all. When that happens it seems people want to get in the last jab, and thus, the name-calling escalates until the original discussion is lost. I don't want you to think my post was directed at you alone, Prae knows he was over the line I'm sure. All I ask is that you guys take a deep breath and try and moderate the name-calling.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Does that include refering to human beings as RAGS?
Oh, knock off the melodrama, please. If those people are taking shots at Americans for trying to help 'em, then they ARE subhuman.

Never forget, if it weren't for the west, those people would have NO economy, period, but we're the bad guys...:rolleyes:

Never forget, if it weren't for the west, those people would have NO economy, period, but we're the bad guys
My how blindly Amerocentric you are.
The stupid economic arguement - Without 'those people' providing oil the west would not exist.
The real point - People have existed long before Oil was ever used. And the middle east in particular was where human life first originated. Besides that, let the greedy multi-national coporate bastards try counting up their blood money without numbers (mid east invention) And America may have never have been discovered without the numerous sky maps they made as well. Point being everything is interconnected and everyone is basically the same the world over. Most just want to survive and be left to themselves. Problems occur when greedy bastards use 'laws' and 'business' to steal that from others.

If those people are taking shots at Americans for trying to help 'em, they ARE subhuman
Oh...Im sorry maybe I missed the middle east begging the US to help them with their severe lack of explosions. Or the fact that Shock and Awe was meant to help Iraqis, not indiscriminantly blow them up.

BTW - Don't you mean ubermenscht you stupid fucking Nazi.

Vile - Sorry, he took a parting shot, I had to take a parting shot too. And I know you werent singling me out. Im just pointing out that I have a strong aversion to racists and it will come out. I guess Ill try to think of a way to be more productive in doing so.

Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
My how blindly Amerocentric you are.
The stupid economic arguement - Without 'those people' providing oil the west would not exist.
Seriously, kid...are you really that deluded? The west discovered, through science, technology, and fortitude, a solid method for developing energy with that commodity, and rightly, they exploited it. The reality of this situation is simple: the west was going to exist regardless of whether or not these sand dwellers "let" us have their oil or not. I mean, come on, we're smarter, and that's all there is to it...:)
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
The real point - People have existed long before Oil was ever used. And the middle east in particular was where human life first originated.
Then they should have figured out how they could've benefited themselves with a product that was beneath their very feet. By your own admission here, they certainly had enough time to do it, but alas...nothing.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
And America may have never have been discovered without the numerous sky maps they made as well.
I'm pretty sure someone would have found it by now.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Point being everything is interconnected and everyone is basically the same the world over. Most just want to survive and be left to themselves. Problems occur when greedy bastards use 'laws' and 'business' to steal that from others.
Yeah, those poor, backwards, barefoot Indians...always getting screwed by people with initiative. How sad...
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
BTW - Don't you mean ubermenscht you stupid fucking Nazi.
No, more like Arme stumme Narren.
Originally posted by 500lbguerilla
Vile - Sorry, he took a parting shot, I had to take a parting shot too. And I know you werent singling me out. Im just pointing out that I have a strong aversion to racists and it will come out. I guess Ill try to think of a way to be more productive in doing so.
What parting shot did I direct your way?

"Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out."
— Sydney Smith

"Dude, you're a total salad tosser…" -- The Praetorian

Originally posted by The Praetorian
if they (the Iraqis) wanted to make this a bloody war, we could just about turn the Tigress and Euphrates red, and it wouldn't be our blood that did it. If we decided to be agressive, what other reality would exist beyond a bunch of rags looking to find reverse in a soviet tank?

?!?!?!

So......our killing of over 16,000 innocent non-combatants in Iraq just doesn't quite rise to the level of "aggressive" in your estimation, eh?

Maybe if you were running the Iraq conflict, we'd simply drop a big enough nuclear bomb to kill all of the "rags" at once.

Who knows.....such an act might be "aggressive" enough to suit even you.

Originally posted by Freethinker
?!?!?!

So......our killing of over 16,000 innocent non-combatants in Iraq just doesn't quite rise to the level of "aggressive" in your estimation, eh?
There are 25,000,000 people in Iraq, FT, and while 16,000 appears to be a big number, it's only an error rate of .064%. Of course, that's assuming that the rest of the people we've terminated are legitimate, and my magic 8 ball tells me all signs point to yes. All things considered, that's not bad, especially in a situation where the enemy blends into the population.
Originally posted by Freethinker
Maybe if you were running the Iraq conflict, we'd simply drop a big enough nuclear bomb to kill all of the "rags" at once.
It's an option, but who'd operate the oil fields?
Originally posted by Freethinker
Who knows.....such an act might be "aggressive" enough to suit even you.
No, I don't want anyone dead, but let's be brutally honest here: it's pretty obvious their way life has sucked for the past few millenniums and they haven't the education, nor the experience to make an informed decision either way, and we need 'em on board NOW. Get with the program, or get dead - it's their choice, and we’re not going to wait any longer for them to make it.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
No, I don't want anyone dead, but let's be brutally honest here: it's pretty obvious their way life has sucked for the past few millenniums and they haven't the education, nor the experience to make an informed decision either way, and we need 'em on board NOW. Get with the program, or get dead - it's their choice, and we’re not going to wait any longer for them to make it.

So we have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and is not as advanced as us and force our political way of life on them? Wow! Can you just imagine when China gets (and it almost is) ahead of us technologically and decides some day that we should "get with the program"?

I can see it now. They invade us and take out our government; they want to put their form of government in place so we will trade with them and not be an enemy. The military hierarchy is gone so the people start fighting the Chinese in the street with bombs and Molotov cocktails. Yet those Americans that want China off our soil would be called terrorists. Those terrorists/freedom fighters should just "get with the program".

You are a piece of work. Get with the program - bullshit. What you really mean is get with OUR program or die.

Originally posted by Echo2
So we have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and is not as advanced as us and force our political way of life on them? Wow! Can you just imagine when China gets (and it almost is) ahead of us technologically and decides some day that we should "get with the program"?
First off, China is nowhere near as technologically advanced as we are, and that notwithstanding, your argument is an apples to oranges comparison. On the surface, it seems to have some validity, however, it's not a very likely scenario either way. Secondly, the only benefit China has is strength in its numbers, and that very same benefit has proven to be their Achilles heel. They can't even feed their country, despite their burgeoning economy, which is still vulnerable, I might add.
Originally posted by Echo2
You are a piece of work. Get with the program - bullshit. What you really mean is get with OUR program or die.
No, Echo...it's get with the WORLD'S program, not just ours.

Originally posted by Echo2
So we have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and is not as advanced as us and force our political way of life on them?

You're close.

Actually, THE ideology of the Corporate States of America can be summed up thusly;

"We have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and wage war against them. We have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and overthrow --either clandestinely or by force of arms-- their government, to remove their democratically elected leaders and replace them with whichever dictator will open up the country to exploitation by U.S. Corporate interests. We have the right to go into any sovereign nation that has something we want and to exploit the human and natural resources of that region to the fullest extent possible, with no regard whatsoever for human rights or human life."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THAT is the mindset and overarching ideology of the U.S. Corporate State Masters in a nutshell.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
First off, China is nowhere near as technologically advanced as we are, and that notwithstanding, your argument is an apples to oranges comparison. On the surface, it seems to have some validity, however, it's not a very likely scenario either way. Secondly, the only benefit China has is strength in its numbers, and that very same benefit has proven to be their Achilles heel. They can't even feed their country, despite their burgeoning economy, which is still vulnerable, I might add.

No, Echo...it's get with the WORLD'S program, not just ours.

No, this is not apples and oranges. This is about invading a soveriegn nation, overthrowing the government, disbanding the military and killing large amounts of the population. Just because our government says so. Doesn't matter what their reason it. You expect the soldiers to do what they are told no matter what.

And you are wrong, it isn't the WORLDS program. It is gw's program and 95% of the world doesn't like it.

I think you need to pay a little more attention. China is very technological and is killing us in trade because they can produce what we produce for about one tenth the price. China has been educating it's population for decades for this very reason. They will and are close to passing us up technologically, agriculturally they are way ahead of us, technologically they are about even, scientifically they are a little behind. Medically they are even. We are no longer the single driving force on this planet. Untill the idiots in DC and people like you understand this, we are in a very precarious position. If we keep pissing people off thinking we are this big bully that no one can beat sooner or later they will take us out.

Originally posted by Echo2
This is about invading a soveriegn nation, overthrowing the government, disbanding the military and killing large amounts of the population. Just because our government says so.

To complete the prescription for the American way of going about bullying the rest of the planet into submission, we must add one last thing to the mix --- the fact that immense PROFITS are being generated for the Big Oil and Big Defense interests involved.

China is rapidly becoming one of the most technologically advanced nations on the planet -- most people understand that point, are not afraid of it and openly admit it.

OTOH, the united states is the one that is falling behind in technology. Beyond military hardware, we build very little of anything that is of interest to the rest of the world and even our military hardware is considered 2nd rate when compared to several of the competitors.

Oh ... did I mention that China probably owns your house.

Dop

it seems that the only thing amerika is worth now is raw material such as coal, timber, etc.. movies, and junk food.

Oh yeah, this place is a shithole. :rolleyes:

"On September 16, 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire was as dead, theoretically, as its predecessor the British. Our empire was seventy-one years old and had been in ill financial health since 1968. Like most modern empires, ours rested not so much on military prowess as on economic primacy."

"In fact, the year 2000 will not only mark the end of American primacy but the end of the hegemony of the white race. We shall comprise about 16% of the world's population in eight years. Let us hope that the other tribes, particularly those of Asia, in their triumph, do not treat us as badly as we have treated them."______Gore Vidal

Originally posted by Freethinker
"On September 16, 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire was as dead, theoretically, as its predecessor the British. Our empire was seventy-one years old and had been in ill financial health since 1968. Like most modern empires, ours rested not so much on military prowess as on economic primacy."

"In fact, the year 2000 will not only mark the end of American primacy but the end of the hegemony of the white race. We shall comprise about 16% of the world's population in eight years. Let us hope that the other tribes, particularly those of Asia, in their triumph, do not treat us as badly as we have treated them."______Gore Vidal


and just think, amerikans are PARANOID, greedy, and lazy AND it has nuclear weapons and aren't afraid to use them.

The Privileged Few ---IOW, the mega wealthy owners of the military/Industrial complex-- who actually have the final say on dropping the nukes will not drop them unless and until they see a way to reap truly massive profits from doing so. (If, for instance they could reap a bounty of ten thousand apiece for every Middle Eastern man woman and/or child they could kill, they'd probably push the button before sundown today. 30 million people x $10,000 equals a nice payday)

They also must be certain that there will be no unmanageable political backlash from the few people left in America who might be a bit squeemish about instantaneously incinerating tens of millions of brown skinned furriners.........but given the current supremacy in America of the dittohead sheep who worship All-Things-KKKonservative, that should pose no significant deterent.

Originally posted by Freethinker
"On September 16, 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire was as dead, theoretically, as its predecessor the British. Our empire was seventy-one years old and had been in ill financial health since 1968. Like most modern empires, ours rested not so much on military prowess as on economic primacy."

"In fact, the year 2000 will not only mark the end of American primacy but the end of the hegemony of the white race. We shall comprise about 16% of the world's population in eight years. Let us hope that the other tribes, particularly those of Asia, in their triumph, do not treat us as badly as we have treated them."______Gore Vidal

That doesn't make the U.S. a shithole anymore than the end of the British Empire turned England into a shithole. Unless you're implying that the end of the hegemony of the white race is bad?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
That doesn't make the U.S. a shithole anymore than the end of the British Empire turned England into a shithole.

I agree 100%.

I never suggested or hinted that that was the case.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Unless you're implying that the end of the hegemony of the white race is bad?

I don't know if it's quantifiable as being good or bad.

It does however occur to me that the coming end to American hegemony will no doubt be a great relief to the other billions of people on the planet that the Corporate States of America have been preying upon, thru their imperialism and their wars for control of the Earth's remaining natural resources.

______________________________

The colonial, racist, imperialist agenda of the U.S. of A. is based on a philosophy in which the Corporation is god, in which so-called “free markets” are protected by the CIA and the Military, in order to promote huge Oil and Defense industry interests. America uses its superior weapons of mass destruction, CIA subversion, IMF, WB, and WTO loans to rob and steal from small nations, in order to feed the consumerist appetite of US citizens.