http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4239445.stm

You gotta be kidding me. This is the absolute funniest thing I've read in months.

Little miss Rice, with here kindergarten voice that wavers between guilt, fear and lieing, actually warns Russia about democracy and westrn relations.

I'm sure Rice understands that Putin is probably lauging back at her as he flips her off and says "Or what???" ... ROTFLMAO

Folks this is really funny to me for a couple of reasons ...

!st - Russia has greatly improved their relations with the Eu and other western nations. We're the ones that are no longer accepted nor trusted...

2nd - Russia is probably in a position to kick our asses if we try anything thanks to overstretching our troops in astan and iraq, nuclear mutual destruction notwithstanding.

Geeesh ... some one get the hook and hit the gong ... this woman does not belong on the world stage and has become a total embarrassment to the united states.

Dop

On edit:

I forgot to mention Russia is self-sufficient with oil and gas and has recently signed agreements with China, Brazil, Iran and Venezuela (and I think N. Korea) for both economic reasons and military defense reasons.

Someone please tell Rice the cold war is over.

I guess russia fixing elections in ukrain and poisoning their pro western candidate was cool with you right?

Just about as cool as having Ohio's blackwell place an average 10 machines in republican precincts and average 3 machines in democrat precincts resulting in the republicans waiting in line 10 minutes or so and dem waiting hours.

Is that what ya mean?

Dop

ya dop, if that puts it into perspective for you that is what I mean

I think it's time to start arguing with Russia about human rights and democracy. For once I agree with Ms Rice (don't forget she was initially a specialist in east europe).

Not entirely sure astra but I believe her expertise was in cold-war USSR. If that's the case, she probably doesn't have a clue about today's Russia.

She doesn't impress me as one who keeps up on events, nor can she think on her feet, nor has she ever had an original thought and does no more than parrot what bushco tells her.

Dop

I am sure she is a bit more clued in then you dop.

I don't know Trav, I'm not sure she's even human. I think she's a cyborg. :D

Now she tells Europe to move past conflicts ...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20050208/ap_on_re_eu/rice

Does she really believe what she's saying?

No one in Europe cares what she says (orders) and no one in Europe accepts 'MUST' from any american and no one in Europe fears us at this point. We can't even control a broken down country that lived under 12 years of sanctions.

They're laughing at her and she's the only one that doesn't realize it.

ROTFLMAO

Dop

ya, go europe! they are really reolute and tough when it comes to people they know wont harm them, just dont mention Ivory Coast to France, they may go running again like they did when they got straffed by that old prop driven Ivory Ocast warplane a few months back. you need some new heros dop.

i say that russia try to develop as many economic trade ties with as many european countries as possible. and without the idea of dominating them like amerika tries to do all the time. especially now that amerikas economy is running into the ground. thanx bush.
but leave out britain, it's just another little amerika, yasa massa, whatever you say massa! give me a fookin break!
go russia! i've even thought of going there.

Not entirely sure astra but I believe her expertise was in cold-war USSR. If that's the case, she probably doesn't have a clue about today's Russia.
Oh that's right, because modern day Russia is worse.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Not entirely sure astra but I believe her expertise was in cold-war USSR. If that's the case, she probably doesn't have a clue about today's Russia.
Oh that's right, because modern day Russia is worse.

Sure. I don't really care about Ms Rice, but I have to agree with her when she criticizes Russia. Furthermore, today's Russia is getting closer to USSR than before. Don't forget Putin is a former KGB officezr, and most of his support are in the army or secret services - not exactly the most modern and pro democratic part of Russia. Plus, he's been doing his best to control the media and private companies, and to get a better grip on former USSR states like Ukraine and Belarus.

Putin / Russia fed up with our lectures ... can't say I blame him. We send a person to lecture him that is known to be a liar, a warmonger and main cog in the wheel of genocide in Iraq.

If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5535252

Dop

thing's would have turned out better IF amerika wasn't so damn snobbish about open FAIR trade with a "communist" country, try not to dominate them with economics, and such.




Originally posted by astrapol2
Sure. I don't really care about Ms Rice, but I have to agree with her when she criticizes Russia. Furthermore, today's Russia is getting closer to USSR than before. Don't forget Putin is a former KGB officezr, and most of his support are in the army or secret services - not exactly the most modern and pro democratic part of Russia. Plus, he's been doing his best to control the media and private companies, and to get a better grip on former USSR states like Ukraine and Belarus.

Looks like Putin isn't going to let gwb get away with the old WMD story again ... maybe even make him prove it ... ROTF.

Of course, sending condi to lecture putin was a big mistake ... don't think there is any way in hell a seasoned KGB operative is going to listen to someone known to be a liar and totally incompetent.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/18/iran.russia/index.html

Dop

I understand you don't like Condi, Dop. But I would like to know what you think of Putin.

Astra

Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Putin nor have I read much about him other than the usual articles of interest you find in the dailys and magazines.

At best, I can only offer my perception mixed with limited knowledge and facts.

The generalizations, of course, would be Putin/KGB/FSB which by itself should lead to a man strong on character and conviction. Probably not the same conviction of Leon Trotsky, Lech Walesa, Nelson Mandella or Che Guevara -- but a person, nonetheless, of the same mold.

His popularity seems to be high with certain groups -- city dwellers (Muscovites?) and the young meaning 30 and under. That would be understandable considering there are many old hard-liners still around from the cold war to drive a wedge between the young and old. I personally do not consider Putin a hard-liner, regardless of the constant references to such.

He apparently is a smart man (meaning educated and experienced) and if I recall correctly he has a degree in law and a very high level of expertise in economics, neither of which hurts him on the world stage. (and it shows)

If anything bothers me about Putin, it may be the cloudiness (vagueness) of his vision for the 21st century Russia as seen through the eyes of americans. It's obvious to this observer that Putin is heading Russia in the right direction, yet it is advertised by our talk radio and TV that he is taking them in a totally different direction -- one that's akin to 3rd world status.

Sadly, too many people believe what they're told and are too lazy to look around at the landscape where they would see Russia re-examining their military philosophies by developing newer and smarter nuclear forces generally still within the same strategic cold-war-footprint, with little if any logic changed. Nothing really changed -- just bigger, bettr and badder.

Along those same lines, he has their military-industrial complex (how's that for a deja vu cold-war term?) churning out a new generation of strategic weapons unmatched anywhere in the world. They are not only fast (mach III) they are deadly accurate, have a range of anywhere in the world, can be invisible to most defenses and have the ability to maneuver in both altitude and course with limits never before witnessed. It should be obvious that Putin plans on ensuring the national security for a very long time, not to mention the cottage industry he has made from this new line of weapons.

It also appears the post-soviet spending cuts have been abated resulting in higher pay and higher moral for the military -- something the Russians needed badly.

Putin deserves a pat on the back for his handling of the country (so far). It just seems nice to know or at least believe that we americans have nothing to fear from his very powerful country unless we ask for it.

I guess I could cover the 'cracking down on dissent' issue that seems to plague Putin according to the talking heads. Here I have a problem due to looking around my own country and seeing our civil and constitutional rights being quickly stripped away and dissent becoming a one-way ride to a cuban gulag. I have no right to critique anyone.

Overall, I give Putin a B+ -- reminding you again, mostly based on perception.

And I gave him 10 bonus points for the extra kool first and middle name 'Vladimir Vladimirovich'.

Dop

I'm afraid I have to disagree strongly with you !

1-
Originally posted by Lungdop Philing

The generalizations, of course, would be Putin/KGB/FSB which by itself should lead to a man strong on character and conviction. Probably not the same conviction of Leon Trotsky, Lech Walesa, Nelson Mandella or Che Guevara -- but a person, nonetheless, of the same mold.

Dop

I don't really see how being linked to secret services should make him a man of conviction. From what I know, secret services are usually more a school of cynicism and manipulation than conviction. Their goal is to keep the power, whatever is needed to do so - a quite different vision from the people which you compared him to, who were aimed at overthrowing dictatorial powers.

2- Not a word about human rights and Russian people's lives ! I know from your further posts that you are well informed and sensitive - so what about the chechnyan slaughter, and environmental disasters in Russia ?
Then, what about the fact than Putin tried (and seems to have managed) to control the media ?
What about the manipulation of Ukrainian elections ?

I am surprised by your indulgence for the man and most of all for his policy.

Originally posted by astrapol2

I don't really see how being linked to secret services should make him a man of conviction.

I could have worded that better so let's try this -- I see him as a man who stands by his convictions whether those convictions are considered right or wrong. IOW -- he doesn't flip-flop like Bush who will promise whatever it takes to get elected with no intention of fulfilling those promises other than the ones that benefit his corporate/military/elitists buddies.

Originally posted by astrapol2
2- Not a word about human rights and Russian people's lives ! I know from your further posts that you are well informed and sensitive - so what about the chechnyan slaughter, and environmental disasters in Russia ?
Then, what about the fact than Putin tried (and seems to have managed) to control the media ?
What about the manipulation of Ukrainian elections ?

I am surprised by your indulgence for the man and most of all for his policy.

We americans, thanks to Bush, have given up the moral high ground. He is the most hated man in the world and I suspect america is the most hated nation in the world. Certainly we no longer have the respect required to lecture any country on human rights, constitutional rights or religious rights. All of those are quickly slipping away here in the homeland [sic]. We no longer practice what we preach and anyone that disagrees with this administration or dissents in any way, faces being hauled off to a modern-day version of a gulag to never be seen again. And if you think I'm kidding or grandstanding ... read our Patriot Act (chapters I, II, III) -- you'll see they have the absolute right to arrest anyone, at any time, for anything (thinnly disguised as terrorist related of course) and sentence that person with no judge, no jury, no trial. That's the american verison of human rights.

You're kidding of course about the chechnyan slaughter. Hell, america is responsible for killing nearly as many people in Iraq as saddam did. Add in Afghanistan and you have some serious numbers. America has become a nation of murderers with no room to judge any other country.

Election fraud??? Bush's america is black belt in that one ... look at Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004 and follow the yellow brick road ... it's heading straight to Jim Crow.

Media matters ... we have a gay prostitute inside our white house, disguised as a journalist, asking bogus question at the press breifings in favor of Bush, getting access to the identity of one of our NOC CIA agents and access to top secret Iraq invasion plans before even congress gets the information and our media won't even touch the story. Tell me about the media.

I've noticed from your posts that you have a strong dislike for Putin for whatever reason. That's fine but AFAIK you don't live in Russia so it's no skin off your rear and OTOH I live in america where we have a leader that is 10 times worse than Putin.

You don't know how lucky you are.

Dop

Sorry but I think you're wrong !
I agree with you about Bush and the many problems of american democracy (while I still don't believe the USA are the most hated country - many people still believe they are an exemple to be followed, or at least they have many positive aspects in spite of their policy, and I'm one of them).

I could easily be as critical about my own country - Chirac is not better than Bush on most issues, and the way France helped dicators in Africa and Middle East, as well as its direct commitemnt in many crimes, including the Rwanda genocide, makes me sick.

But that is in no way a reason why I should not make a moral judgement on the way Putin is leading is country. I still believe in ideals like freedom and respect of human beings, and obviously Putin is not respecting them. While obviously people like Bush, Rice or Chirac are not in position of giving advice to Putin, you and I still have the right to state our opinion, haven't we ?

Yes we do Astra and I appreciate the intelligent debate that you add to the forums. I wish you would jump in more often.

And you can bet the wingers will be once again labelling me as unamerican and possibly even a terrorists for expressing dissent toward George W. Bush, their god and emperor. Maybe I should just get in that line to emigrate to Canada -- problem is .. there are 15,000 people in front of me. Wonder why?

Dop

Don't give up the fight ! ;)

Putin tells Bush to go f*ck off.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1032354,00.html

This is why I like Putin.

Go Vlad

Dop

On edit: Here's more ...

2 russian reporters challenge Bush on his remarks

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/02/28/003.html

Unfortunately, the enemy of my enemy is not necesarily my friend...

If Condi isn't very careful, Bush is gonna get her killed.

Now rice is telling the europeans not to arm China ... like, does this woman have a brain in her head? Does she realize no one believes a word she says? Does she realize no one cares what she says?

In the article she claims it's the United States that's defending the Pacific -- not the Europeans ... defending the pacific????? Against what or whom???

Is there a war going on that I don't know about???

This woman is embarrassing and i just want the world to know she is not now, or ever under any circumstances, speaking for me.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050320/ap_on_re_as/rice&sid=84439559

Dop

Originally posted by M&Mdelite
If Condi isn't very careful, Bush is gonna get her killed. when, dammit ? i think colin powell should have gone instead. think about it, colin, and putin, 2 things connected to the asshole.

He doesnt kill those close to him. They know too many secrets.

They just kill the people trying to find out those secrets...like Gary Webb. Suicided with 2 "self inflicted" gunshot wounds to the head.

How about baxter? IIRC -- he was inside his car and shot himself through the car window from the outside.

Dop