re-li-gion
1. belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshiped as the craetor(s) and ruler(s) of the universe.
2. Any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy.

So, #1 says it's not and #2 says it is. Hmmm... This leaves it up to an opinion for right now, until the dictionary is updated.

My belief: Atheism is a religion and therefore should be treated as such by all organizations, public and private.

Why religion formed in the first place: http://cornelismondt.tripod.com/atheism/id14.html

That's a really interesting site. I intend to revisit it when I can read it thoroughly.


The "parent" theory is a very good one, but I think there may be more reasons for religion. My reasons, which are fear of death and lack of human goodness, could basically back up the theory offered on the site, though.

Fear of death implies that humans want that protection from dying completely. We want to think that we go on, in some form, even after death and we look to a god to supply us with this.

As for lack of goodness -- well, I just don't know how else to put it, but my words aren't sounding the way I want them to. What I mean is that I know people who have admitted that at some point in their lives, they could have done really destructive things to others or to themselves if it were not for a fear of punishment. I think this backs up the theory because, just as parents punish us, some people may be looking for a god figure to keep them in line.

I find it hard to believe that simply by not believing in God, you are automatically a religious person. Sounds ridiculous to me.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
I find it hard to believe that simply by not believing in God, you are automatically a religious person. Sounds ridiculous to me.

I agree with dave on that point. Being atheist is precisely being out of any religion.
Note that one can believe in God or have some kind of spiritual belief without being part of any religion. That atttude is even increasingly common in Europe (in the USA too I guess) : many people feel "there is something" but don't want to be involved in any type of organization or dogm.

a·the·ism
- Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
- Godlessness; immorality.

I guess if it was an organized approach then it could be called a religion, but I think it tends toward being not a religion.

This goes into semantics rather deeply. Once again, by Religion def. 1, it is not, by by def. 2, it is. Atheism is defined enough to qualify under #2. But most do not recognize it as a religion. It is understandable, and I do not condemn people for believing that. I can see the #1ers' point, but as a #2er, I don't quite buy into it.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
I find it hard to believe that simply by not believing in God, you are automatically a religious person. Sounds ridiculous to me.

I actually agree with you...

i dont know much about this sort of thing but i'd tend to agree with Dave and(for once) tentmaker, since they(atheists) are not actually worshipping something. Still #2 does leave a lot of questions...

Whether atheism is a religion or not depends on the context IMO. From a political point of view, it is certainly a religion since I have little doubt that the idea of "freedom of religion" applies to atheists as well. In all other ways, I would say atheism is not a religion.

I see your point. I would rather say it is an opinion, and "freedom of opinion" rather than of religion is involoved. I guess it also depends on cultures. In France, for example, people hardly define themselves by their religion and atheist would not support the idea that it is a religion. Maybe in the USA where religion seems more important, the situation is different.

#2 can be interpreted abiguously. As such, depending on the individual, the socio-cultural context in question could be of importance.

Atheism isn't a religion.

Atheism and theism can't be religions. They're only believes; and a religion is, moreover a belief, the whole of practices caused by this belief.

Theist people can worship their god (because of they love it or they fear it) or they can excrete it (for example satanic people), they're religious people; theist people can also do nothing, so they aren't religious people (in this sense). But atheist people can't worship or excrete gods, so atheism can't cause a religion.

However, atheist people can be religious. There're other religions that they aren't based on theism, for example Confucianism or Buddhism. But if someone say that he's a atheist in west, he's consider as no religious person because of the three most religions are theists (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). So be atheist is equivalent to not be religious in west.

Can one practice their athieism religiously?

A Christian, for example, goes to church and pray. But I don't know that kind of practices could do an atheist.

Buddhists are somewhat atheist. So Atheism is a religion too.

This might have been said already, but I got lazy & stopped reading 1/2 wasy down. Anywho...

2. Any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy.

Atheism is a belief, but we have nothing to actually worship. So no, it's not a religion.

Originally posted by werm
This might have been said already, but I got lazy & stopped reading 1/2 wasy down. Anywho...

2. Any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy.

Atheism is a belief, but we have nothing to actually worship. So no, it's not a religion.

The definition you cite doesn't say you have to have something to worship. It says you have to have a "specific system of ... worship." The question is whether "abstaining from worship" is a "system of worship." I would say it is.

Yes, but does simply giving up on one religion then spawn a whole new denomination?

Atheism is the disbelief in a supernatural being or beings.


Religion is the belief in a supernatural being or beings.

So therefore if one does not believe in a higher power or being then they must be atheist and also not be of any religion. Just my 2 cents worth.

i really don't care about whether atheism is considered a religion or not a religion, and as an atheist it is not a question that troubles me very often. it's just when people say that since atheism is not a religion, atheists do not deserve religious freedom is what troubles me. it's an issue of freedom of religion vs. freedom from religion.

Can one practice athiesm religiously?

i would certianly be surprised if i met someone who did practice thier atheism religiously, since there's nothing to worship. i dont' even know how it might be done.

It doesn't matter if atheism is a religion or not, Jehova's witness is a religion, but just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I'm going to say oh Jehova's Witness is a religion so it must be good. No! I believe atheism is wrong along with many other beliefs. I may sound narrow minded, but that is what I believe.

how is atheism so "wrong?"
i'm not trying to pick a fight or be rude i'm just curious as to what you mean in this context.

Atheism is a belief that everything I believe or any other religion is just a bunch of fairy tales. And that evolution is what started everything. Along with their beliefs they try to rid the world of any evidence of God, or at least disguise it, and in doing so, they attempt to destroy what I believe is the truth. Not only do they attempt to rid the earth of the evidence of God, they also attempt to neutralize christianity as if it were a virus spreading through out this world. Which I believe is wrong.

Element when as an atheist came up to you and said "you can not practice your religion anymore?" Why do you feel atheist are out to get you? An atheist is not out to ruin anything they just don't believe.

As far as the evolution statemnet there are "religions" that believe in evolution.

also, there's nothing that says atheists have to believe in evolution. it's an accepted scientific theory which many people believe to be correct. atheism doesn't have a set of "beliefs," in my opinion, but it is a bunch of people who don't believe in a god.

as for me i don't believe in a god. however, i am not so sure that i would come out and make a positive statement like "god does not exist." for me, it's more like i highly doubt the existence of a god but i am aware that none of us knows the real truth and i'm not going to pretend i do.

Sputnik that is also true, I'm sure we could find some atheist somewhere that believe we were dropped here by aliens.

I think the problem is when a religious person hears that someone is atheist they automatically assume that atheist are anti-religious.

Originally posted by ElementLight
Atheism is a belief that everything I believe or any other religion is just a bunch of fairy tales. And that evolution is what started everything. Along with their beliefs they try to rid the world of any evidence of God, or at least disguise it, and in doing so, they attempt to destroy what I believe is the truth. Not only do they attempt to rid the earth of the evidence of God, they also attempt to neutralize christianity as if it were a virus spreading through out this world. Which I believe is wrong.
You obviously have no knowledge of atheism whatsoever...whatever you think you "know" is probably just gleaned from some rants you found on the Internet or what some red-faced pastor yelled about from his pulpit.

Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of a supreme being. No more, no less. What you are referring to, with the "ridding the Earth of evidence of existance of God" and "neutralizing Christianity" is Nihilism. Atheists generally, and here I say generally, believe in evolution, yes, and they are, again generally, firm believers in the ability of science to explain things in the world. If science came up with proof or even evidence of the existence of a supreme being, most would readily believe it and likely would become Deists, unless the proof or evidence in question favored a particular religion. Alas, no proof or evidence of a supreme being exists.

Christianity in a country such as America, where people are free to practice their own religion, belongs not in government but in people's own private lives. If that is what your "neutralization of Christianity" part is all about, then yes, most atheists try to keep all religion out of government.

About evolution - I am tired of reading this would be an "atheist" theory opposed to religion, and that it could be a question of faith. Evolution has nothing to do with religious belief. It is a a scientific concept, which is now universally considered as valid by all scientists, from any religion or culture.

Astra, the druids believed in evolution back in 3000BC(atleast). Druids believed that a human would have to go through all types of life forms before becomming a human after they are human they go to the next level. There are writtings were Druids tell there tales of being a salmon, then a bird, etc... until they finally reach human form.

evolution is not only science or religion it is believed by both.

If atheists do not believe in either a super being or evolutionism then tell me what they believe. And forgive me for saying atheists are out to get christians. I got atheists and evolutionists mixed up. I am also sorry for confusing you all with my new username, I simply forgot my password and never got it back when I asked for it. I wish to be a friend not an enemy, well anyway lets keep arguing until the end of time.:D

Originally posted by ElementLight2
If atheists do not believe in either a super being or evolutionism then tell me what they believe.
See my post on Page 2.

Originally posted by ElementLight2
I got atheists and evolutionists mixed up. I am also sorry for confusing you all with my new username, I

Are "evolutionists" a recognized group of anti-Christian people, or are you using the term generically to refer to anyone that believes in evolution? Because I believe in it and I'm a Christian.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
You obviously have no knowledge of atheism whatsoever...whatever you think you "know" is probably just gleaned from some rants you found on the Internet or what some red-faced pastor yelled about from his pulpit.

Yet again you infer that christians only learn what is preached to them from some fire and brimstone character. Nearly every post you make about christians does this. Everyone here knows that you not only are an atheist, but hold christian beliefs in extreme disdain. Give it a rest. There are many christians who have common sense and learn without being force fed their beliefs.

Another thing. Even though you believe yourself to be more intelligent than christians, you should try to control the condescending attitude a little more.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Yet again you infer that christians only learn what is preached to them from some fire and brimstone character. Nearly every post you make about christians does this. Everyone here knows that you not only are an atheist, but hold christian beliefs in extreme disdain. Give it a rest. There are many christians who have common sense and learn without being force fed their beliefs.

Another thing. Even though you believe yourself to be more intelligent than christians, you should try to control the condescending attitude a little more.
The posts you describe I make against ignorant ultra-Christian beliefs like, for example, that atheism is some evil belief system, and make false accusations against atheists. Christian beliefs like "love thy neighbor" are good in theory, but unfortunately the more fundie sects have ignored such teachings in favor of hating anything different than their own viewpoint. I don't care one way or another if you're Christian, in fact I rather like some sects like Presbyterian, but when someone makes a claim like "they (atheists) also attempt to neutralize christianity as if it were a virus spreading through out this world" (a direct quote from Element Light), I am going to defend my beliefs and I sure damned well am going to assume that some "fire and brimstone character", as you so aptly put it, made this claim to him/her, and he/she believed it. Ignorance is what I can't stand, not Christianity, though some denominations are built on ignorance.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I don't care one way or another if you're Christian, in fact I rather like some sects like Presbyterian, but when someone makes a claim like "they (atheists) also attempt to neutralize christianity as if it were a virus spreading through out this world" (a direct quote from Element Light), I am going to defend my beliefs and I sure damned well am going to assume that some "fire and brimstone character", as you so aptly put it, made this claim to him/her, and he/she believed it. Ignorance is what I can't stand, not Christianity, though some denominations are built on ignorance. So basically you are going to attack them without trying to find out their source first. So really you are not looking for opinions, simply a fight. Am i correct?

Also, i didnt know that atheism was a belief. I thought it was a lack of belief that defined atheism.

Originally posted by HaVoK
So basically you are going to attack them without trying to find out their source first. So really you are not looking for opinions, simply a fight. Am i correct?

Also, i didnt know that atheism was a belief. I thought it was a lack of belief that defined atheism.
Source? I think I'm a pretty good source, being an atheist myself.

Agnosticism is more or less defined as a lack of belief. Atheism is defined as a belief in no god.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Source? I think I'm a pretty good source, being an atheist myself.

Agnosticism is more or less defined as a lack of belief. Atheism is defined as a belief in no god. So being an atheist means you know everything there is to know about that subject? There is nothing you can learn on the history of your "belief"?

Also, do you not think it possible that there may be atheists in the world that are actually working to discredit religion? Some christians may take this as a direct assault on all they hold dear.

Or would you have me believe that all atheists are great people who always obey man's law and have uncompromised morals? I would really like to know because it seems that you are becoming more and more a know it all. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by HaVoK
So being an atheist means you know everything there is to know about that subject? There is nothing you can learn on the history of your "belief"?

Also, do you not think it possible that there may be atheists in the world that are actually working to discredit religion? Some christians may take this as a direct assault on all they hold dear.

Or would you have me believe that all atheists are great people who always obey man's law and have uncompromised morals? I would really like to know because it seems that you are becoming more and more a know it all. Prove me wrong.
No, you misunderstand me. I make no claims as to the actions of all atheists, yet none of my friends that are atheists try to "neutralize christianity as if it were a virus spreading through out this world." So, I assume most atheists are this way. Perhaps they (and myself) are in the minority? I doubt it.

Atheists fail to remain true atheists when they actively try to disprove religions. They then become what could be considered a sect of atheism, perhaps, called Nihilism.

it's important to keep in mind here that there isn't one set of defined atheist "beliefs" or philosophy. so if you find that one atheist believes something, that's not necessarily a completely accurate representation of the rest of us.

Originally posted by sputnik
it's important to keep in mind here that there isn't one set of defined atheist "beliefs" or philosophy. so if you find that one atheist believes something, that's not necessarily a completely accurate representation of the rest of us. Keep that in mind next time you see an atheist spouting off about how "christians" have no tolerance, or "christians" try to cram their religion down people's throats.

I dont know if your post was directed at me or not. If it was, i have made no all inclusive comments about atheists. Most of my post involved questions asking Borg his opinion about the possibility that there were atheists out there who had the fall of religion foremost in their minds.

i wasn't directing those statements towards anyone in particular, just stating them for people to think about.

What kind of a topic is this, when I saw the same people laughing there asses off in one topic as if they were best friends, but now getting at each other's throats just because you think anyone who has different beliefs than you are your enemy.

Come on guys and ladies I thought these communities were based on something other than how big of a civil war you can have in one community.

BorgHunter I like most of your topics, especially the word association game, but your turning your own community memebers against each other by posting this topic.

Originally posted by ElementLight2
BorgHunter I like most of your topics, especially the word association game, but your turning your own community memebers against each other by posting this topic.
Is atheism a religion? - posted: 11-15-2002 at 07:02 PM

I posted this the day after I joined Allforums, over a year ago. Long before I even became a mod. But if you want, I shall close the topic.

Originally posted by ElementLight2
BorgHunter I like most of your topics, especially the word association game, but your turning your own community memebers against each other by posting this topic.

It might sort of look that way, but I think everyone here is able to separate debate from friendlier chats. Trav and Dop argue with each other all the time and then start talking about writing fantasy novels. Don't mistake spirited debate for anger.

No!!!!!!

Originally posted by ugababe117
No!!!!!!
Care to elaborate?

I read something interesting on this subject on the Internet, thought I'd share it with you:

"Atheism is not a belief, but a lack of belief and therefore faith is not possible, and atheism being a religion is not possible. Calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color. "

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I read something interesting on this subject on the Internet, thought I'd share it with you:

"Atheism is not a belief, but a lack of belief and therefore faith is not possible, and atheism being a religion is not possible. Calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color. "

Interesting, but in my opinion incorrect. To state that atheism is not a belief is pure sophistry. You might just as easily say that "religious belief" is not a belief in God, it's a lack of believing in atheism. The words "faith" and "belief" don't neccessarily have religious connotations. To say "I believe there is no God" is just as valid as "I believe there is one". You could even say. "I have faith that God does not exist". Faith would be an appropriate term because there is no way to prove your belief in the non-existence of God, it is just something you believe. Whether or not atheism is a religion depends on which definition of religion you prefer. Atheism is a belief system however, and as such it might be considered a religion, but I doubt you would find many atheists willing to accept that they are "religious".

There are many what you would call "belief systems" out there that we openly acknowledge as non-religion. Do you suggest that we treat them as religions as well? For example, anything that ends in "-ism" can be explained as based on some belief & some principles. I think you dwell on the words and definitions too much.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
There are many what you would call "belief systems" out there that we openly acknowledge as non-religion. Do you suggest that we treat them as religions as well? For example, anything that ends in "-ism" can be explained as based on some belief & some principles. I think you dwell on the words and definitions too much.

Well, I think that the question at the beginning of this thread asks for a comparison of religion and atheism, and then supplies two different definitions for religion. My point is that the English language has many nuances, and you would first have to accept one definition of religion before you could decide if atheism falls inside or outside that definition. I personally don't consider atheism to be a religion in the traditional sense.

is atheism a religion? is it really all that important? the important thing is that atheists get the same religious freedom as theists do. freedom from religion is every bit as important as freedom of religion.

yay! sputnik got it right (my freinds are so smart!). but, even though it is irrelevent, I'll voice my opinion anywho.
I don't think athiesm is a religion, it's a lack of religion. it's really not oprganzied enough to be, plus that whole no god thing. but there are athiests who can get really dogmatic, and preachy about athiest values, etc. etc. and somehow I think they really wnat some type of religious thing without the whole god thing. which can get really annoying.

Of course it's not a freakin' religion.

The DEFINITION of Religion, as the original poster made clear, implies the presence of at least one deity and the act of worship.

Do atheists worship? No.

This is the silliest debate to come down the pike in a while, and I blame its constant reoccurrance on the mindless preachers and religious authorities who spew garbage like this every Sunday. "Atheism is a religion of its own, blah, blah, blah." It's as if they want to categorize atheists as "religious" to vex them. Childish, really.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity. That's it. It's NOT a belief system as another poster said. That is egregiously wrong. It's simply a lack of belief in a deity.

Besides that, you put any two atheists in a room and their individual beliefs will NOT be the same. There is no atheist belief system, or code, or any such nonsense.

However, even with all the denominations of Christianity, put any two Christians in the room and you see a similar belief system:

1. God exists
2. Christ was the son of God
3. Christ was crucified and rose from the dead
4. The Bible is the handbook to God-designed absolute morality

On and on...

Why? It's a belief system. It's a RELIGION. It has religious mandates, rules, commandments and the like that structure it. Like Islam, Judiasm, and such.

Atheism is a lack of belief in not only all of the above, but in any kind of conceivable divinity.

Ham-handed attempts to classify it as a religion are nothing more than molestation of the English language.

Vilepagan:

<<To say "I believe there is no God" is just as valid as "I believe there is one". You could even say. "I have faith that God does not exist".>>

Not really. Faith indicates belief (note the positive) in something for which not enough evidence exists. Faith is a leap past logic. The opposite of this would be to stick to logic and evidence (materialism). That is, to only believe in such things indicated by evidence and logic.

You are trying to equate two things which are not at all the same. Believing in an invisible being that protects and loves us, despite all evidence to the contrary, requires faith and a leap past rational thinking. Not believing in that for which there is no evidence does not require this...does not require faith.

The omnipresence of organized religion and the tendency for some families to indoctrinate their children into their religions may make it feel like it requires an effort to not believe...but that is simply due to one's own socialization and experiences. Put it this way: Without exposure to organized religion via word of mouth, books, and other indoctrination, do you think a person would have to have "faith" not to believe? Wouldn't NOT believing be the default?

Faith requires effort and constant reinforcement. That is why religious types have study group, church sessions, sermons, and religious-based activities. I need none of this constant reinforcement in my lack of belief. Like my lack of belief in the Easter Bunny, it is simply something that seems logical, natural and I put little effort into it.

<<Faith would be an appropriate term because there is no way to prove your belief in the non-existence of God, it is just something you believe.>>

Faith is not at all an appropriate term at all. There is no way to prove the non-existence of something that doesn't exist. Prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Even if you go to the North Pole on an expedition, there are those who could claim he lives in an invisible magical castle. There is no way to prove this.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, especially with extraordinary claims like Bigfoot, aliens and an invisible god in the sky.

A belief is something that stresses the positive, not the negative. You're twisting the meaning of "belief", and I'm not sure why. Would you call your lack of belief in Santa Claus a belief, or belief system...or even a religion. No..it's an absence of belief.

there isn't evidence of any kind as to whether god exists or not. therefore, there really isn't nay way of knowing conclusively whether or not a god exists. as an athiest, I believe that there is no god. the poeple I know who beleive in god have faith that god exists. athiesm is a beleif, nobody can know for sure about god.

I have always thought of religion as requiring faith and ritual. Although people tend to think of atheists as having neither, I beg to differ. With so many variables among people who consider themselves believers, I imagine there is also a great latitude among atheists as well.

If we are talking about principles, morals, belief systems, all people follow them, whether because of religion or from experience of what works best for them. For example, an atheist might be guided by a love of humankind whereas a believer would be guided by the worship of a deity.

Then, of course, there are the agnostics who just can't seem to make up their mind! :rolleyes:

Agnostics actually have the best viewpoint, scientifically speaking. Neither side can prove that they're right, so they're in the clear either way. :D

Yeah, but I know me...can't tolerate the ambiguity.

I worship Haagan Dasz! :)

Originally posted by Dark Star
I worship Haagan Dasz! :)
SINNER! You shall BURN in the pits of HELL!!!!!

/devout Ben & Jerry's follower :D

Oh, yeah?

Well, have some Phish Food on me...no, seriously, have some ON me. :cool: